Neptune Aquatics

2 dead clownfish in my QT

Hmm. Hard to say really. Definitely seems like the cycle was a bit fast. Maybe not enough oxygenation of the water? Or you were just unlucky and got sick fish. Also seems like to fed a lot.

I may have missed it, but what were you using for bio media?
 
A couple of things strike me right away. First, did you check the ammonia again after day 2 to see where it was before putting in the fish? YOu "fed" the beneficial bacteria only one time with ammonia. Then you let the tank sit with nothing that makes it a good environment for the bacteria. Once the initial ammonia was consumed there was no more food given and there was only one small sponge and then a lot of glass for the bacteria to inhabit. My guess is your initial population (from the 2 capfulls) collapsed. You could have used a full bottle of Dr. Tim's with only beneficial effects. Two cap fulls isn't much. Second, you immediately treated with copper, etc. In other words, you placed them under more stress without even observing them for a few days to see if they needed any treatment.

For the future, do you have the space to keep a QT operating all the time? Also, keep biomedia of some type in your DT do that you can use that to seed the QT. Clowns are generally hard to kill since they are almost always tank raised these days. While it "could" be many things I'd bet it was ammonia because of how quick it was and since they were clowns.
 
Whoa, why would the LFS that sold you those fish recommend copper? Were they suspected to have gotten parasites at the LFS?

+1 On the toxic ammonia theory, Dr Tim’s doesn’t work in a glass tank with nothing else in it, because there isn’t enough surface area for bacteria.
 
By the way though --- you may have lost these two, but you are way ahead of most reefers that have been doing this for years. I suspect you will have great success at this hobby.
 
Does the copper mess with the test kits? I thought I read that somewhere, but can’t remember for sure. Regardless of the cycle, it seems like 2 clown fish wouldn’t produce enough ammonia in 2 days to become toxic. For the tank transfer method, you go 72 hours and usually don’t have enough ammonia to require any treatment before the tank swap.
 
Maybe not enough oxygenation of the water?
In the QT tank, I have a HOB + a powerhead aimed slightly high. There was ample water movement.
Also seems like to fed a lot.
They were given maybe 1/8th of a mysis shrimp cube total. Same food/brand they ate at the LFS.
First, did you check the ammonia again after day 2 to see where it was before putting in the fish?
Yes, it was 0. Because I'm inexperienced with the Red Sea kit, I also looked at the seachem ammonia alert, and tried a tetra dip stick to make 100% sure.
My guess is your initial population (from the 2 capfuls) collapsed.
That might be true, however after the first fish died, my nitrates were slightly higher than before I added the fish.
In other words, you placed them under more stress without even observing them for a few days to see if they needed any treatment.
My initial plan was to get them to eat for 3 days straight, then prazi 2x, then copper for 4 weeks. I was advised to start copper below therapeutic during drip acclimation at the LFS. They are a reputable LFS and had thriving fish and a nice DT so I went with their advice. Cuprion was at 0.1ppm in the QT before I started the drip.
The next fish will eat for 3 days before I do anything. I'm actually not in a rush at all and really enjoy the process moving slowly and giving me time to contemplate what I'm doing and giving me enough buffer to correct things.
For the future, do you have the space to keep a QT operating all the time?
10G yes. The main DT is currently cycling but slower than the QT did. The idea was to have the fish out of QT in 6 weeks when the DT had cycled for a while with ammonia dosing. That way the DT doesn't finish cycling and have its bacteria die while the fish cycle in QT
I'd bet it was ammonia because of how quick it was
This is the bit that I don't fully comprehend. 2 clowns in 10G, one died in 24 hours. I never saw any ammonia either before adding the fish, during or after they died. I did a full analysis after the 1st one, and the 2nd one died as a "post-mortem" to understand what went wrong and why I wasted two lives. From reading around, it seems very unlikely that the fish could've produced enough ammonia to hurt them with the given timing (TTM quoted earlier, emergency tank procedures with daily water changes)
Whoa, why would the LFS that sold you those fish recommend copper?
They recommend treating all fish with copper for 4 weeks, then prazipro (while maintaining therapeutic copper levels) 2 to 4 times, depending if the fish exhibits any signs of disease. They also sold me "Rid-Itch Plus" as a general antiseptic to treat the fish immediately before putting it in the DT as a way to protect them.
Dr Tim’s doesn’t work in a glass tank with nothing else in it,
I had a HOB filter with a sponge in it. I'll add ceramic biomedia next time.
Does the copper mess with the test kits?
Not sure. The 2nd emergency tank didn't have any copper in it. From reading around, it seems like if anything test kits give false positives when there's copper in it.

--
I'm still not convinced it was ammonia since I couldn't detect it at any time, the bacteria from the QT did do some work (tiny bump in nitrate) and 10G for two clown fish shouldn't result in death <24 hours I think?
 
Do you know if the fish was in any copper at the LFS? And do you know how long they had the 2 fish for before you got them?

Only other thing I can think of is your ro/di water. Have you checked for chloramines? I can’t remember from your other thread, but given everything you’ve done, I’m sure you have.
 
Does the copper mess with the test kits? I thought I read that somewhere, but can’t remember for sure. Regardless of the cycle, it seems like 2 clown fish wouldn’t produce enough ammonia in 2 days to become toxic. For the tank transfer method, you go 72 hours and usually don’t have enough ammonia to require any treatment before the tank swap.
Cupramine will definitely mess with the ammonia test kits due to the chelating compound used in cupramine.


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Are you sure you're new at this?
Thanks for the compliment. Assume nothing, I have a track record of 2/2 dead fish in saltwater so I know a lot of things but have 0 practice.
No outward signs on the fish? Spots or fuzzy bits? Dull scales etc?
Not that I can see. Here's a Youtube video of the first dead fish and his buddy having a hard time next to it :( :( :(
Do you know if the fish was in any copper at the LFS?
Yes, they run chelated copper. I used Brightwell's Ionic, non-chelated copper (Cuprion). Could there have been an interaction? Should I buy the same copper the LFS is using? I got Brightwell from BRS due to all the good reviews.
Have you checked for chloramines?
Yes. Livermore uses chloramine. My RO/DI system is a BRS 6 stage and I tested both the reject water and the rodi water. Both had 0 according to the Lamotte test strip. After the 1st fish died, I also tested the tank water and it was negative.
Cupramine will definitely mess with the ammonia test kits due to the chelating compound used in cupramine.
I was using Cuprion, which is non-chelated.
 
So I'll setup the QT tank again tonight (Cleaned with vinegar and rinsed multiple times yesterday. Air drying today). A few questions:
- I mixed my salt with cold RO/DI water (64F). It's a high quality salt (HW marinemix) and nothing precipitated. I also use a powerhead and a circulation pump to keep things moving. I went slow and the water was crystal clear. That should be fine, right?
- Whole bottle of Tim's. That's 2 Oz? Can I buy a 4 oz bottle and dump half?
- Bio media. The HOB I use (Fluval/Aquaclear) also comes with ceramic bio media, I'll add that too.
- Ghost feeding. This has been recommended a few times on r2r. Any benefits in doing that instead of pure ammonia? I was trying to avoid all the crud that comes with decaying food like phosphates.
- Speaking of cycling a tank, last time I waited until ammonia went to 0 and the nitrates showed up, then did a 25% water change before adding the fish. This time should I dose ammonia for longer to really grow the colony or once it's safe the fish will keep the colony alive? Traditional cycling, takes months because it relies on bacterias in the air to make their way into the tank. Adding Nitrifying bacterias should be akin to adding a live rock from an established system, right? Once ammonia goes to 0 and nitrates are detectable, is it cycled? I heard 2ppm -> 0ppm in 24 hours is ideal so should this be my benchmark?
 
So a couple of thoughts. Yes you can use half a bottle of 4oz. It has a pretty long shelf life so you can use the rest in your DT down the road. Although, it doesn't hurt to use 4 oz either. :)
We have a number of members in the East Bay. I'm in Walnut Creek. I'd suggest grabbing some sump rock or biomedia that's been in someones sump for a while. I'd be happy to bag up a few MarinePure balls that have been in my sump for years.
I'd also suggest ghost feeding in a QT instead of the straight ammonia. Using ammonia it's actually pretty easy to stall the cycle even when you're taking your time. This is one of those times that a "best practice" approach may be better than just relying on the test numbers. Phosphates are easy to bind up if that even becomes an issue. A small amount of phosphates aren't going to hurt your fish anyway.
Going from 2ppm->0ppm is ideal. but it needs to be replicated for at least a couple of days. Using straight ammonia I'd give it a week and make sure that I could replicate it three times to be perfectly safe. Can you make a QT tank "safe" in 24 hours. Yes -- but I wouldn't unless I was forced too.
 
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