Plumbing Question for new tank

[rygh]

Noise elimination without constant tweaking is fairly straightforward, but you have to have 2 pipes.

Pipe 1, with a valve, runs in full siphon mode, and takes 90% of the water.
This one starts at the bottom of your overflow, and exits under the water in your sump.
Being in full siphon, it is 100% dead quiet.
You need the valve to adjust the flow to get near that 90%. But rarely needs tweaking after that.

Pipe2 starts very high in your overflow. About 2" down from the top.
So acts a bit like an overflow, inside the overflow. (Or, do it durso-like, but does not matter much)
It also needs to exit under water in sump, but needs some sort of small vent hole, to prevent suction.
This only takes 10%, and with such a small amount, will have mostly
laminar flow on the sides of the pipe, so will also be very quiet.
You can run it slightly off vertical, and it gets even quieter.

Do that, and your powerheads will make more noise.

Reduces bubbles as well.

 

[Plumstr8]

Single 1" Overflow is rated to handle 600 gph, you always want to bigger anyway. If you stick a 1" pvc ball valve somewhere before it enters the sump you can throttle the overflow to stop unwanted air gasping and excess drain noise.

They are only rated that way if installed vertically (bottom of tank) If you run them horizontal expect far less, like nearly half un many cases.

I allready took friction loss in to account by a large margin.

1" I.D. PIPE installed in the 100% vertical position is rated @ 16gpm/960gph under gravity flow only. (Which is the senario for a fish tank overflow) -360gph for friction loss caused by horizontal pipe and fittings

1" I.D. PIPE installed under operating pressure of 20-100psi is rated @ 37gpm/2220gph

 

[Sfork]

Well the site I linked to only rates the 1"ID bulkhead at 300GPH. I don't think I'll be doing the full siphon style since I don't know how well I can make 2 holes right next to each other. Thanks for the tip about the T Gresham.

Any tips on a return pump? I've never had to buy one that strong before and would like to avoid hours of research and just get a few suggestions . The water will be pumped up maybe 3-4' and most likely be Y'ed off to the 2 returns.

 

[GreshamH]

Single 1" Overflow is rated to handle 600 gph, you always want to bigger anyway. If you stick a 1" pvc ball valve somewhere before it enters the sump you can throttle the overflow to stop unwanted air gasping and excess drain noise.

They are only rated that way if installed vertically (bottom of tank) If you run them horizontal expect far less, like nearly half un many cases.

I allready took friction loss in to account by a large margin.

1" I.D. PIPE installed in the 100% vertical position is rated @ 16gpm/960gph under gravity flow only. (Which is the senario for a fish tank overflow) -360gph for friction loss caused by horizontal pipe and fittings

1" I.D. PIPE installed under operating pressure of 20-100psi is rated @ 37gpm/2220gph

It's not friction loss that cause the issue though so that is a pretty moot point to make. The rating actually has no bearing on the actual problem which is hard to describe with out a picture. But if you think you can get 600gph through a 1" bulkhead that has a 90 out of the back on a horizontal plane, have at it and prove me wrong. You may get that much water through but it won't be nice and it won't be quiet at all.

 

[Plumstr8]

Single 1" Overflow is rated to handle 600 gph, you always want to bigger anyway. If you stick a 1" pvc ball valve somewhere before it enters the sump you can throttle the overflow to stop unwanted air gasping and excess drain noise.

They are only rated that way if installed vertically (bottom of tank) If you run them horizontal expect far less, like nearly half un many cases.

I allready took friction loss in to account by a large margin.

1" I.D. PIPE installed in the 100% vertical position is rated @ 16gpm/960gph under gravity flow only. (Which is the senario for a fish tank overflow) -360gph for friction loss caused by horizontal pipe and fittings

1" I.D. PIPE installed under operating pressure of 20-100psi is rated @ 37gpm/2220gph

It's not friction loss that cause the issue though so that is a pretty moot point to make. The rating actually has no bearing on the actual problem which is hard to describe with out a picture. But if you think you can get 600gph through a 1" bulkhead that has a 90 out of the back on a horizontal plane, have at it and prove me wrong. You may get that much water through but it won't be nice and it won't be quiet at all.

Here is flow factor problem.

If you keep the bulkhead submerged you will have a full siphon which is how you get good GPH ratings. The added pressure from the water being above the bulkhead forces the siphon to be much stronger.

People sometimes have bad flow if the water level is lower than the top of the bulkhead, this is becuase every time a pocket of air enters the pipe, it breaks the natural siphon effect.

Im not trying to be a wise#$%, just trying to help give actual real life fiqures on a pipes rating. Sorry if I came across wrong. Im only telling you what I know from being a pipefitter.

Heres a ew digrams for PVC that can help also.

http://flexpvc.com/WaterFlowBasedOnPipeSize.shtml

 

[Sfork]

Any tips on a return pump? I've never had to buy one that strong before and would like to avoid hours of research and just get a few suggestions . The water will be pumped up maybe 3-4' and most likely be Y'ed off to the 2 returns.

Also, are 2 x 1/2" returns fine? looking to hook up some loc line. Is there a standard size for return pumps? To minimize having to use adapters to go bigger or smaller.

Gonna buy all my bulkheads and stuff tomorrow morning and order the tank + stand at albany aquarium also.

 

[xcaret]

mags on the 2, 3, 5, 7 use the same thread size

 

[xcaret]

If it was me to drill the tank, to run a mag 2 or 3 I'd use 1/2" returns, 3/4" with a Mag 5 or 7 but that's me

 

[Plumstr8]

Hey where are you buying your bulkheads and stuff?

 

[Sfork]

Thanks Mario,

@plumstr3 I'm getting them from glass-holes.com since that's where I'm getting the drill bits from too.

 

[Plumstr8]

How are the prices? I dont know what size drill bits you want but I could check my shop tommorow, I pretty sure a have a few diamond holesaws you could use? Also have some brand new 1/2" loc line fittings I didnt use, Im sure we could work something out. Im in SF

 

[Qwiv]

Single 1" Overflow is rated to handle 600 gph, you always want to bigger anyway. If you stick a 1" pvc ball valve somewhere before it enters the sump you can throttle the overflow to stop unwanted air gasping and excess drain noise.

You never put a valve on your drain line unless you have a back-up drain.

Whats the problem with a valve? Ive done that on plenty of tanks, works great!

If you close the valve to much = you will raise the tank level and starve the sump pump.

That might also cause an overflow in the main tank, but most sumps dont have enough water in the final baffle area to overflow the tank.
Unless you have a 30 Gal. sump on a 10 Gal. tank?

You can adjust the valve by closing it slowly until the pump starves and opening it back up until you get the desired sump level.

Either way, hope this helps.

That is great, assuming you design your sump in a way that the return pump will run out of water before an overflow.. until you install an Auto Top Off.
If your return section is so small that it runs dry before you overflow the display, you will need to manually top off more to fight evaporation leading to installing an ATO.

FYI, you can set up a "Herbie" style overflow with only one drain if you manifold the piping on the back of your tank.

 

[Plumstr8]

Single 1" Overflow is rated to handle 600 gph, you always want to bigger anyway. If you stick a 1" pvc ball valve somewhere before it enters the sump you can throttle the overflow to stop unwanted air gasping and excess drain noise.

You never put a valve on your drain line unless you have a back-up drain.

Whats the problem with a valve? Ive done that on plenty of tanks, works great!

If you close the valve to much = you will raise the tank level and starve the sump pump.

That might also cause an overflow in the main tank, but most sumps dont have enough water in the final baffle area to overflow the tank.
Unless you have a 30 Gal. sump on a 10 Gal. tank?

You can adjust the valve by closing it slowly until the pump starves and opening it back up until you get the desired sump level.

Either way, hope this helps.

That is great, assuming you design your sump in a way that the return pump will run out of water before an overflow.. until you install an Auto Top Off.
If your return section is so small that it runs dry before you overflow the display, you will need to manually top off more to fight evaporation leading to installing an ATO.

FYI, you can set up a "Herbie" style overflow with only one drain if you manifold the piping on the back of your tank.

?? This has nothing to do with an ATO, we where talking about an overflow, you said " Dont ever install a valve on your overflow" Im explaning why it donst matter if you do. Overcourse you could build your sump in a way that dosnt support the way I explained. If you read my post, I explained how to adjust your overflow, the sump gets starved during the adjustment process only. Once the valve has been adjusted and your TANK and SUMP levels are at the desired height/level. Your Done. Then you can install your ATO float switch to maintain the levels you have set, water levels wont change unless you adjust the valve. So in conclusion the ATO device still works even if you install a valve on the overflow. The rest is common sense and or worst case senarios.

 

[rygh]

Single 1" Overflow is rated to handle 600 gph, you always want to bigger anyway. If you stick a 1" pvc ball valve somewhere before it enters the sump you can throttle the overflow to stop unwanted air gasping and excess drain noise.

They are only rated that way if installed vertically (bottom of tank) If you run them horizontal expect far less, like nearly half un many cases.

I allready took friction loss in to account by a large margin.

1" I.D. PIPE installed in the 100% vertical position is rated @ 16gpm/960gph under gravity flow only. (Which is the senario for a fish tank overflow) -360gph for friction loss caused by horizontal pipe and fittings

1" I.D. PIPE installed under operating pressure of 20-100psi is rated @ 37gpm/2220gph

It's not friction loss that cause the issue though so that is a pretty moot point to make. The rating actually has no bearing on the actual problem which is hard to describe with out a picture. But if you think you can get 600gph through a 1" bulkhead that has a 90 out of the back on a horizontal plane, have at it and prove me wrong. You may get that much water through but it won't be nice and it won't be quiet at all.

Here is flow factor problem.

If you keep the bulkhead submerged you will have a full siphon which is how you get good GPH ratings. The added pressure from the water being above the bulkhead forces the siphon to be much stronger.

People sometimes have bad flow if the water level is lower than the top of the bulkhead, this is becuase every time a pocket of air enters the pipe, it breaks the natural siphon effect.

Im not trying to be a wise#$%, just trying to help give actual real life fiqures on a pipes rating. Sorry if I came across wrong. Im only telling you what I know from being a pipefitter.

Heres a ew digrams for PVC that can help also.

http://flexpvc.com/WaterFlowBasedOnPipeSize.shtml

Agree : Full siphon is the way to go, but don't over-estimate the pressure.
Pressure on a pure vertical full siphon = weight of water above + weight of water below.
If your tank is 24" high, and your sump is say 12" down, that ends
up being about 1.1 PSI. Not large.

The problem is, a lot of those tables you use are for fairly high flow/pressure,
and are largely friction based.
Even the so called "gravity fed" column looks to be more for pump inputs.
That is often based on or near air pressure (14 PSIA), since they assume max pull before cavitation.

At such low pressures, you need to think more about the physics
and acceleration of the water.

A crude explanation:
With a straight vertical pipe, and only friction on the sides, water can
accelerate for the entire length of the pipe, so you get pretty high flow.
But once you hit a bend, the water has to stop, and accelerate off a different direction.
That acceleration is a function of your water pressure.
Do that twice at such low pressure, and it really limits your flow.


NOTE:
While I agree that 1" at 900 GPH with some bends might be questionable,
I would emphasize that water TRULY in full siphon mode is absolutely dead quiet!
(See my earlier post in this thread on how to make it happen)
Simple solution is to bump it up to 1.5" (over twice the volume)

 

[Qwiv]

Single 1" Overflow is rated to handle 600 gph, you always want to bigger anyway. If you stick a 1" pvc ball valve somewhere before it enters the sump you can throttle the overflow to stop unwanted air gasping and excess drain noise.

You never put a valve on your drain line unless you have a back-up drain.

Whats the problem with a valve? Ive done that on plenty of tanks, works great!

If you close the valve to much = you will raise the tank level and starve the sump pump.

That might also cause an overflow in the main tank, but most sumps dont have enough water in the final baffle area to overflow the tank.
Unless you have a 30 Gal. sump on a 10 Gal. tank?

You can adjust the valve by closing it slowly until the pump starves and opening it back up until you get the desired sump level.

Either way, hope this helps.

That is great, assuming you design your sump in a way that the return pump will run out of water before an overflow.. until you install an Auto Top Off.
If your return section is so small that it runs dry before you overflow the display, you will need to manually top off more to fight evaporation leading to installing an ATO.

FYI, you can set up a "Herbie" style overflow with only one drain if you manifold the piping on the back of your tank.

?? This has nothing to do with an ATO, we where talking about an overflow, you said " Dont ever install a valve on your overflow" Im explaning why it donst matter if you do. Overcourse you could build your sump in a way that dosnt support the way I explained. If you read my post, I explained how to adjust your overflow, the sump gets starved during the adjustment process only. Once the valve has been adjusted and your TANK and SUMP levels are at the desired height/level. Your Done. Then you can install your ATO float switch to maintain the levels you have set, water levels wont change unless you adjust the valve. So in conclusion the ATO device still works even if you install a valve on the overflow. The rest is common sense and or worst case senarios.

Sorry. Putting a valve on the drain line allows you to adjust the drain to create a perfect silent siphon. Closing it only a little until you almost have a siphon makes the drain loud. You are saying that if your drain line clogs (not a full clog, just enough so the siphon can no longer keep up) the water level in the display will rise and the water level in the sump will drop. You are saying that the water in the sump will drop faster in the sump than the display so as the return pump starts caveating because it is out of water. I agree this would work but risk your return pump. But then you say you can add an ATO. Nope. If your drain line clogs, the water level of the display rises, the water level in the sump drops, the ATO fills is back up until the ATO is out of water. The ATO might not keep up with the return pump, but it eventually will overflow unless you designed your display to also be able to hold the volume of your ATO.

Do what you want, but most of my tanks have/had a valve on the return with a back-up drain. The back-up drain has been in use more than once preventing a flood at some point.

 

[Plumstr8]

I agree with the back up drain, I try to install them when ever I can, sure makes sleeping and going out of town eaiser to think about.
No one wants to come home to a flooded house, because a Mexican Turbo Snail or some algae wanted to use your overflow for a water slide

 

[Sfork]

Got my tank today and the stand and all the hole drilling stuff. Going to have to stain the stand, never done that before, and drill the tank. Any staining tips? I could use some lighting suggestions, I wanted a pendant but I don't know what kind? I'm not sure why the HQI pendants always take up so much space. I wanted one similar to this guy's tank http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=211082 but his are custom and I cant seem to find something similar.

 

[Sfork]

success! my first hole!

 

[bmhair03]

GreshamH , Is the 1" T into the tank or out the back ? I'm on year 7 of my battle with my 30gal . I have it pretty quiet, but I have to turn down my return because the flow is so bad. From the inside out the back my set up is : 1" 90,1" bulkhead , 1" tee to 1" spa flex . top of Tee is capped and has a JG fitting to adjust the air flow.

 

[Sfork]

Thanks for the help. I finally got it together now. nothing is welded together yet. Instantly broke my 10 gallon sump when i got it home (luckily no baffles installed yet) so now it's on hold again.

How much bigger than the pipes should I make the holes in the stand? I bought some 1 3/8" hole maker but the 1" pvc fits too perfectly I feel like it'll break the tank if i shift it around somehow. would a 1 3/4" hole be big enough? or should I just make a 2" hole?