Moral BAR sponsors?

[kurplunk]

Aquarium concepts is a sponsor of BAR. BAR which states " seeks to promote, foster, and encourage education and appreciation for the ethical husbandry and propagation of marine life." How responsible of a LFS is it to sell or "hold" 350 Clarion Angels. A species that only exist in one part of the world should not be robbed of so many. I'm sure it would be an awesome display of beauty, but at what price. Trust me I'm no animal rights advocate, but it just seems against what the club stands for.

 

[sfsuphysics]

Well I think the issue there is at what point do we draw the line? There are many species that exist in one part of the world that we happen to have at our disposal much more readily than Clarions. I'm not sure of exact percentage that were harvested, but if Steve Robinson had anything to do with capture you know they were captured in a very environmentally friendly way.

 

[neyugn0w01]

AC is the holding facility for the Clarions. I believe this have been discussed. The majority of the Clarions are already sold. I don't see how AC is being unethical.

 

[kurplunk]

I understand your point. Then why such a price? Why the restrictions on permits? How much of the money that these fish fetch goes back into protecting or help monitor the impact of collection? Should we not question this? This club has helped educate me on so many things I never took into account when I first started reefing. I have learned to refrain from buy anything I can not take care of. No matter how beautiful. 300 just seems like an obscene amount!

 

[kurplunk]

I don't think it matters if every single one is sold. The issue is they are rare and i'm sure not all 300 will live to their final destinations.

 

[kurplunk]

I know this may be the case of all imported marine fish. And because something is plentiful, it does not make it expendable. But if something is really rare should we not pull the rings back a bit and say hey maybe not so many? Even if it is supplying 100's of stores and collectors. I've seen plenty of threads condemning different stores for having poor holding systems and uneducated workers. I've been to AC a bunch of times, and the only difference is the know how to dress it up a bit nicer.

 

[Elite]

Aren't all Yellow Tang come from Hawaii??

I think it's all depend how many are these fish in the area.. If they are like anchovies, 300 is a pretty small #.

 

[sfsuphysics]

[quote author=kurplunk link=topic=5349.msg66353#msg66353 date=1227913241]
I understand your point. Then why such a price?
[/quote]
Supply/Demand, numbers of them are available, it's physically expensive to collect them because they're so isolated from everywhere.

Why the restrictions on permits?

The locals put such restrictions on them due to the location they are (from a military standpoint) IIRC is the reason they don't want tons of divers over there.

How much of the money that these fish fetch goes back into protecting or help monitor the impact of collection? Should we not question this?

I do think so, but then the question to ask next is how many other stores do we ask this of? Black tangs? Gem tangs? ... Chromis?

This club has helped educate me on so many things I never took into account when I first started reefing. I have learned to refrain from buy anything I can not take care of. No matter how beautiful. 300 just seems like an obscene amount!

I agree to a certain point, I don't know how they're being "held" if they're throwing 20 per in 55g display tanks (that's a lot of tanks), or if there really is that much room for them to be held in a humane manner . It could also be that they were being held locally and fished slowly, then one big shipment (to save on freight) was sent. But like Phong said, I don't know how many 300 really are compared to the wild. I don't think I'd equate "being expensive" with "few numbers in the wild"

 

[kurplunk]

Mike- You are probably right! It just got me thinking to what is really out there, and what impact we have, and can have. I used to be a member of ducks unlimited hunting club. Even though the focus was on the hunting of ducks, they put a lot of money into preserving the land for these animals to thrive. It would be nice to see this hobby go in that direction.

 

[drdoolittle]

I was at AC today and saw the Clarion Angels. I understand Daniels concern, it pretty sad to see this many rare Clarion Angels captured and held in a small holding tanks.

 

[Elite]

How come he didn't have ASAP hold them for him? ASAP is a much bigger place.

 

[Thales]

My 2 pennies:

Clarions are only 'rare' in the hobby. There are a bagillion of them in their habitat. This seems to be no excuse for treating them poorly to make a buck - if indeed they are being treated poorly, I have not seen them.
You can't assume that because someone caught them, they were caught in an 'environmentally friendly way' - the realities of business drive the business - or that because someone is connected with them animals that they actually had any hands on involvement in their catching.
Importing them directly into an LFS seems to be something the 'ethical crowd' on the industry side of the hobby derided in the past, and I find it a odd that this is being done now.

The whole thing is an interesting turn of events to say the least.

 

[GreshamH]

[quote author=Thales link=topic=5349.msg66383#msg66383 date=1227928028]
My 2 pennies:
The whole thing is an interesting turn of events to say the least.
[/quote]

+1

 

[robert4025]

I am not sure how much of it is fact but I've heard that Steve have done a lot of marine conservation work with the collecting region's government so in return they gave only him the right to collect these fish.

 

[cortez marine]

People,
The shipment is the result of about 15 years of very expensive effort that has finally begun to pay off. My Mexican partner Arturo Valdes eventually died in the endless pursuit of this very permit.
The costs of survey after scientific survey nearly exhausted our resources and is why no one else...including all the L.A. importers are in this thing. Few people are as hard headed as I and they quit long before before the needed breakthrus will occur.
I speak Spanish and work with biologists, partners , officials and fishers all the time.
I also spend more time with the US Fish and Wildlife Service then you might imagine and pre-alert them and reveal all permits to them.

We decided to house the fishes with Aquarium Concepts as they are near my house and the airports and wildlife services and brokers.
The economic slowdown left many tanks at A.C. lightly stocked empty and I saw an opportunity to house them in a better place while I set up a new wharehouse. I like his RK-2 skimmer and attention to detail and disease issues.
Its also temporary.
They are a social angel and mediums and large ones do better in groups. The fewer there are the more they fight.

OUT OF 288 FISH...THERE WERE NO DOAS and it was no accident. We know what we are doing.

I caught 1/3 rd of them myself and my local collecting team the rest.
These young fish were collected over a large range and represent many thousands seen. Surveys and permits preceed all collection activity by years.
The years are finally up and we get a chance to regain so much financial loss and risk in the proving our case for sustainability.
The USFWS then reviews the paperwork and when in order, allows the importation.

Most of the fish encountered are adults...ie breeders and we are one of the only fisheries that see yearling fishes as more valueable.
The older fishes are all left to breed and make plankton. They make millions and millions of clarion babies every year but mother nature uses eggs as much as food as anything else.

The fish are not that special...the prevalence of healthy habitat is and is what determines their abundance.
They are abundant in their own habitat...they are rare in human hands, especially in urban centers of mass consumerism.
If they were biologically rare there would be a point here but they are only rare to our eyes which is a culturally skewed definition of the term and hardly credible.
Now gem tangs are rare in their own habitat...so are conspics and many species of the most coveted of corals.
Half of them will be exported this week now that the holidays are over. That slowed us down and kept the fishes all together and from being shipped out.
If you think its crowded at A.C. you really need to see a wholesaler after putting away 70 boxes of Philippine fish sometime. This is in fact a wholesale operation that allowed the public to have a peek.
Shall we keep imported fishes hidden in wharehouses as a rule? If there is a problem with revealing how the trade works, perhaps we should.
I thought people might find it interesting.


Steve

 

[Roc]

[quote author=cortez marine link=topic=5349.msg66446#msg66446 date=1228007152]
People,
The shipment is the result of about 15 years of very expensive effort that has finally begun to pay off. My Mexican partner Arturo Valdes eventually died in the endless pursuit of this very permit.
The costs of survey after scientific survey nearly exhausted our resources and is why no one else...including all the L.A. importers are in this thing. Few people are as hard headed as I and they quit long before before the needed breakthrus will occur.
I speak Spanish and work with biologists, partners , officials and fishers all the time.
I also spend more time with the US Fish and Wildlife Service then you might imagine and pre-alert them and reveal all permits to them.

We decided to house the fishes with Aquarium Concepts as they are near my house and the airports and wildlife services and brokers.
The economic slowdown left many tanks at A.C. lightly stocked empty and I saw an opportunity to house them in a better place while I set up a new wharehouse. I like his RK-2 skimmer and attention to detail and disease issues.
Its also temporary.
They are a social angel and mediums and large ones do better in groups. The fewer there are the more they fight.

OUT OF 288 FISH...THERE WERE NO DOAS and it was no accident. We know what we are doing.

I caught 1/3 rd of them myself and my local collecting team the rest.
These young fish were collected over a large range and represent many thousands seen. Surveys and permits preceed all collection activity by years.
The years are finally up and we get a chance to regain so much financial loss and risk in the proving our case for sustainability.
The USFWS then reviews the paperwork and when in order, allows the importation.

Most of the fish encountered are adults...ie breeders and we are one of the only fisheries that see yearling fishes as more valueable.
The older fishes are all left to breed and make plankton. They make millions and millions of clarion babies every year but mother nature uses eggs as much as food as anything else.

The fish are not that special...the prevalence of healthy habitat is and is what determines their abundance.
They are abundant in their own habitat...they are rare in human hands, especially in urban centers of mass consumerism.
If they were biologically rare there would be a point here but they are only rare to our eyes which is a culturally skewed definition of the term and hardly credible.
Now gem tangs are rare in their own habitat...so are conspics and many species of the most coveted of corals.
Half of them will be exported this week now that the holidays are over. That slowed us down and kept the fishes all together and from being shipped out.
If you think its crowded at A.C. you really need to see a wholesaler after putting away 70 boxes of Philippine fish sometime. This is in fact a wholesale operation that allowed the public to have a peek.
Shall we keep imported fishes hidden in wharehouses as a rule? If there is a problem with revealing how the trade works, perhaps we should.
I thought people might find it interesting.


Steve


[/quote]

We;; I thought it was amazing to see, and I am grateful. AC is a good place and they run a good shop

 

[bayareaquarist]

I would venture to say that with a fish that is "rare in human hands, especially in urban centers of mass consumerism" could be targeted by breeders themselves thus improving upon the moralistic and ethical issues we all come face to face with...2 cents!

-Also wasn't this fish collected prior to the freeze on Mexico's permit/exportation?

 

[GreshamH]

[quote author=bayareaquarist link=topic=5349.msg66809#msg66809 date=1228252465]
I would venture to say that with a fish that is "rare in human hands, especially in urban centers of mass consumerism" could be targeted by breeders themselves thus improving upon the moralistic and ethical issues we all come face to face with...2 cents!

-Also wasn't this fish collected prior to the freeze on Mexico's permit/exportation?
[/quote]

1. broadcast spawners have proven extremely hard to bred and get through the larval stage. Clarions are in no danger in the wild.
2. Yes, the moratorium started like 20 years ago. Prior to that there was collections of them and they wholesaled for a mere $300 or so

 

[bayareaquarist]

[quote author=GreshamH link=topic=5349.msg66904#msg66904 date=1228327363]
1. broadcast spawners have proven extremely hard to bred and get through the larval stage. Clarions are in no danger in the wild.
[/quote]

Yeah Ive heard the fish is quit prevalent in that part of Mexico and produces hundreds offspring, per fish, every year!!?
-ergo the irony of the fish being a broadcast spawner~!

 

[tuberider]

[quote author=bayareaquarist link=topic=5349.msg67016#msg67016 date=1228348598]
[quote author=GreshamH link=topic=5349.msg66904#msg66904 date=1228327363]
1. broadcast spawners have proven extremely hard to bred and get through the larval stage. Clarions are in no danger in the wild.
[/quote]

Yeah Ive heard the fish is quit prevalent in that part of Mexico and produces hundreds offspring, per fish, every year!!?
-ergo the irony of the fish being a broadcast spawner~!

[/quote]

Broadcast spawning is more prevalent in animals that have a velliger stage, sort of an evolutionary "hang up" so to speak.