License to krill

Shout out to Kessil

capescuba

Supporting Member
I wanted to give a shout out to Kessil for taking the time to do the AP9X demo's via zoom and making time to talk to customers.

I just spent an hour with them, they listened to, and acknowledged my gripes for the AP700 (App and Firmware issues) and then went into the new AP9X which looks and sounds pretty solid.

Top notch customer service IMO.
 

Flagg37

Supporting Member
I wanted to give a shout out to Kessil for taking the time to do the AP9X demo's via zoom and making time to talk to customers.

I just spent an hour with them, they listened to, and acknowledged my gripes for the AP700 (App and Firmware issues) and then went into the new AP9X which looks and sounds pretty solid.

Top notch customer service IMO.
I’ve got 3 AP700’s and was looking to get a fourth. Is there enough of a difference (in your opinion) to warrant replacing them?
 

capescuba

Supporting Member
I’ve got 3 AP700’s and was looking to get a fourth. Is there enough of a difference (in your opinion) to warrant replacing them?
Well, if mine went out today I would probably consider the AP9X

Main reasons:
  • Better/more reliable WIFI
  • Better App to program - Also coming is a web app!
  • Integration with APEX
  • Better (smoother) light spread
  • Articulated Single arm that can rotate and pivot for better placement
  • Better heat management which should also extend the lifetime beyond existing 5-7 years
My aim has always been stability and after my 3 years, the lights have been just that.

Does this justify an extra $130 or so? Maybe, but maybe not ;)
 

sfsuphysics

BOD
Staff member
Extra $130? I thought the price was to increase to $830(ish)? The current price is $800, so that's only a $30 increase no?
 

sfsuphysics

BOD
Staff member
The thing is too, I wouldn't be terribly shocked if they stopped production of the AP700, so when all the old stock out there gets sold off your only option is this light.
 

JVU

BOD
Staff member
I saw the light today in person at Neptune Aquatics. It looks great in person over a tank (better than in pics IMO), more compact than the 700. The app for the 700 is a nightmare, but the app for the newer A360X lights I have is rock-solid. I would assume the app for the 9X Would be the same or very similar (which would be great).
 

sfsuphysics

BOD
Staff member
That's one thing maybe I don't get about programming, but it seems when a company throws out an app as long as it works they're done with it. Meanwhile new versions get a new app that turns out to be... USEFUL! Why can't they just use the 9x app with the 700? And why can't you use the Mobius link with Reeflink?
 

ofzakaria

Supporting Member
The thing is too, I wouldn't be terribly shocked if they stopped production of the AP700, so when all the old stock out there gets sold off your only option is this light.
I would highly expect they will.
The ap700 was not successful product in my opnion. The market is flooded with used for sale and it's rare now to see someone saying they are planning to buy an ap700..
 

max_nano

Supporting Member
That's one thing maybe I don't get about programming, but it seems when a company throws out an app as long as it works they're done with it. Meanwhile new versions get a new app that turns out to be... USEFUL! Why can't they just use the 9x app with the 700? And why can't you use the Mobius link with Reeflink?
Because people will buy the new light to get the new app
 

Flagg37

Supporting Member
I would highly expect they will.
The ap700 was not successful product in my opnion. The market is flooded with used for sale and it's rare now to see someone saying they are planning to buy an ap700..
This is kind of why I was leaning towards sticking with the AP700 and adding another one. I bought my last used one for $450 and I don’t think it would be hard to find another in that range.
 

sfsuphysics

BOD
Staff member
Because people will buy the new light to get the new app
Seriously? I come from a different generation then, I won't buy new hardware because I like the software with it, instead I'll bitch and moan "why don't you make it usable by the old stuff!" this goes with things like cars too.
 

JVU

BOD
Staff member
Folks, the thing that you aren’t acknowledging is that it takes a lot of effort/money to develop and redevelop software/firmware, often as much as it does for the new hardware itself. Our hobby is a very small market (relatively few units sold), with very demanding users. With rapid improvements in LEDs and lighting knowledge in general, manufacturers need to come out with new versions of hardware with significant improvements on a pretty short timeline to stay relevant, like every 2 years for each niche light. Same with wireless integration, apps, etc. It makes sense to come out with new generations of supporting accessories including software with each new generation of light, not several generations of accessories/software for each generation of light. If it can be made backwards compatible easily, great. But in this case it apparently can’t, presumably because the communication protocols are different (and much improved) in the new generation.

Not everything is a conspiracy to get you to buy new product. If you like their previous gen product and accessories, then you’re in luck because they can be purchased at a steep discount. I thought the AP700 was a great light with crap interface/software, but a whole still a good package. Don’t complain that you can’t buy the old gen light at a steep discount then get many of the new advantages of the next gen light. Kessil is a good company with great support. I have no doubt that if it were feasible for them to easy improve the software for old hardware at no or minimal cost they would.
 

sfsuphysics

BOD
Staff member
No one is saying they want all the new features of the new product with their old product, they (me) just don't want the old products to not suck so much when it's in their power to do so. Now I'm not speaking of Kessil specifically here, I don't run them, but the mention of the interface (app) stinking did bring about parallels with Ecotech, Neptune, as well as other non-reef related stuff out there. And it seems like manufacturers of goods get the software side to a "there it works!" phase and then other than maybe fixing bugs (emphasis on the maybe) it largely gets thrown into the "done" pile and while they do listen to feedback any fixes/changes are only going to be applied to the next version of the product.

And this isn't about any steeply discounted products, which remains to be seen, this is simply a matter of things never changed, those who bought new (when it was new) was largely stuck with it, and now the "R&D" into making an interface friendly/useful gets upgraded for the next batch.
 
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JVU

BOD
Staff member
No one is saying they want all the new features of the new product with their old product, they (me) just don't want the old products to not suck so much when it's in their power to do so. Now I'm not speaking of Kessil specifically here, I don't run them, but the mention of the interface (app) stinking did bring about parallels with Ecotech, Neptune, as well as other non-reef related stuff out there. And it seems like manufacturers of goods get the software side to a "there it works!" phase and then other than maybe fixing bugs (emphasis on the maybe) it largely gets thrown into the "done" pile and while they do listen to feedback any fixes/changes are only going to be applied to the next version of the product.

And this isn't about any steeply discounted products, which remains to be seen, this is simply a matter of things never changed, those who bought new (when it was new) was largely stuck with it, and now the "R&D" into making an interface friendly/useful gets upgraded for the next batch.
I already understood your point of view on this because it’s obvious and understandable and my knee jerk reaction too. On a personal note, I was really annoyed when I reported a bunch of app/interface bugs to them early in the AP700 cycle and they never fixed them. I would agree with everything you said if it was an iPhone or something else that will sell by the billions in revenue.

But reefkeeping gear is different for the reasons I already pointed out, mostly because it’s a low volume niche. If they have to choose between 6 year gen cycles with intervening minor software upgrades and backwards compatibility, versus 3 year gen cycles with major new software and other accessories upgrades for each new gen only, they pick the later and I’m glad they do.

I’m not saying you can’t have your opinion that they should spend their money improving old equipment instead of coming out with new equipment, I’m just saying it’s unreasonable to demand that they improve the old AND come out with the new at the same pace, due to the nature of our hobby. And I’m trying to explain why so you don’t think there is something nefarious going on.

If you don’t want to accept this you (and a lot of other folks) can just continue to complain about things and be upset by them without consequence. The companies do their best with each gen cycle because it’s a competitive market, and they get some thing really right while they get other things really wrong. The next gen cycle they improve the big problems and also leverage improvements in technology. That’s progress for the hobby.
 

ofzakaria

Supporting Member
I already understood your point of view on this because it’s obvious and understandable and my knee jerk reaction too. On a personal note, I was really annoyed when I reported a bunch of app/interface bugs to them early in the AP700 cycle and they never fixed them. I would agree with everything you said if it was an iPhone or something else that will sell by the billions in revenue.

But reefkeeping gear is different for the reasons I already pointed out, mostly because it’s a low volume niche. If they have to choose between 6 year gen cycles with intervening minor software upgrades and backwards compatibility, versus 3 year gen cycles with major new software and other accessories upgrades for each new gen only, they pick the later and I’m glad they do.

I’m not saying you can’t have your opinion that they should spend their money improving old equipment instead of coming out with new equipment, I’m just saying it’s unreasonable to demand that they improve the old AND come out with the new at the same pace, due to the nature of our hobby. And I’m trying to explain why so you don’t think there is something nefarious going on.

If you don’t want to accept this you (and a lot of other folks) can just continue to complain about things and be upset by them without consequence. The companies do their best with each gen cycle because it’s a competitive market, and they get some thing really right while they get other things really wrong. The next gen cycle they improve the big problems and also leverage improvements in technology. That’s progress for the hobby.
John not sure your passionate posts are really justified. Criticizing a product dosnot mean criticizing a whole company.
I believe ( out of 3 years experimce) ap700 is failed product. It was plagued with power supply issues, LEDs melting, horrible connectivity and app and subpar coral growth. Yet at the same time, I believe kessil is one of the best LED companies out there, their other products are very good and their customer support is second to none..still, AP700 missed the mark and customer feedback all over the forums is the evidence.
These are customers opinions and you cannot minimize it just because there was efforts and money spent on the product development. This argument is (if you look at it from customer POV) out of touch.

Because I do not knownif you have used ap700, I have, 3 of them, ended up selling 2 for 45% of the cost and 1 litraly throwed it in the trash....I am sure zune had alot of efforts and money spent on development....

Customer should be allowed to voice their concerns and opnion without fear of shaming or favor.
Also the industry size has nothing to do with how product is evaluated. Smaller industries like ours, force excellence otherwise you cannot compete, that should not be an incentive for customers or advocate to be ok with issues in a product...
Btw do you know why I had 3 not 2? My system only need 2. I was perused by arguments similar to the one you are advocating right now, and thought maybe it was my fault, let me buy a 3rd new one it will be better..well it did not and these strong advocates did their thing and moved on while I wasted close to $2600..
My 2 cents.
 
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