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Hobby Costs; Can they be lower?

That's a good question, my bill always has a "Penninsula Clean Energy Generation Charge" that I apparently auto-matically opted in for, but it claims to be cheaper than PG&E generation.
San Francisco has done that too, gotta look at the fine print or at least shoot an email at the people in charge turns out the price for electricity generation is "cheaper" however the cost to "transport it" is more expensive so it ends up usually costing the same or more than PG&E, oh PG&E is the one transporting it (basically cost of line maintenance). And yeah there are laws that let municipalities automatically opt you in, you can get out of it but if they required people to opt in they'd get a lot less.

Unfortunately I ruined my perfect streak with December, so sad. Didn't end up costing me anything because I have well over 2000 kWh "banked" but still it was a point of pride (only 3.26kWh of panels too).
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See what you can do if you don't have big honking tank leeching away your life savings to give executives in the power industries a luxurious lifestyle? :D


Now as to the OP that's a tricky thing, for me it always seemed the biggest expense in the hobby is the cost to simply stay constant what I mean is how much it costs for utilities, supplements to keep the tank going, and periodic replacement cost of equipment (which is largely an unknown). Things like the initial purchase of equipment I feel there is a lot more wiggle room in that, the cost of livestock can also easily be mitigated as long as you are able to set your bar "low" for what you want and all that basically are self inflicted costs bases on what you have been craving (or tempted as the case often is) for your system (whether as an upgrade or an initial purchase).

As for whether or not I feel those in the industry have excessive margins I would like to say yes but the reality is I don't know. I mean I see how expensive something like a Tunze stream pump is and then compare it to a clone like a Jebao pump (back when they did what looked to be really close to identical clones) and you can say "well the Tunze is higher quality, but is that really the only difference I'm paying for? or are some Tunze execs driving around high end BMWs as a result of brand loyalty?" and for something like an LED light (I won't mention specific companies since most apply) but that's definitely an area where anyone with a bit of know how can spec together the prices to build the same thing and that often is going to be considerably cheaper and that is without getting any sort of bulk discounts on materials which said manufacturer most likely is getting but then there's the idea of how much does labor cost them (whether it's people or a machine doing the job)? should I be paying for their marketing? what exactly does some executive in company XYZ really 'deserve' to make? It gets complicated and some of those questions simply really can't be answered in any way other than opinionated responses.

Bottom line is a lot of this hobby is largely driven by making us desire "flashy stuff" they will argue that we absolutely "NEED" to have it or else! I mean who hasn't heard of a company selling a particular product say something along the lines of "Yes it does cost a lot of money, but don't you want to make sure the thousands you invested into the tank stays stable?" While sure there absolutely is some truth in that, they are very cleverly using words to get people to believe they need their product (not a competitors). I mean hey doesn't that Royal Exclusiv Dream Box just look sexy? Don't you want to spend 2 grand on it? Or would you like to get a $50 glass tank and some silicone to put baffles in it for a piece of equipment who's job it is to hide your equipment (think about that).

So yeah, complicated answer, and I don't think there's really a solution other than to tell people to vote with their wallets but unfortunately that isn't really an useful option either as you might have 99 people scoff at $1000 for a very common anemone that may look a bit different under pigment changing LED lights, but if the person selling it gets that 1 person it makes it all right.
 
In regards to the coral aspect, not equipment,
Well, that's why this forum is created. At least with some corals, would be good if ppl would put items in DBTC. Or trade more corals.
I have so many frags for DBTC but ppl are not really coming to even get them. I wonder why. Might not be the higher-end corals but they still look good in a tank.

Damm your PGE bill is crazy. I live in SF and I do have a care discount because I don't make sufficient money but my entire bill for a 2 bedroom townhome with gas and electricity is $186 and the care discount is $77. Also, I am signed up with CleanPowerSF so I by from them but not sure how much difference it makes.

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In regards to the coral aspect, not equipment,
Well, that's why this forum is created. At least with some corals, would be good if ppl would put items in DBTC. Or trade more corals.
I have so many frags for DBTC but ppl are not really coming to even get them. I wonder why. Might not be the higher-end corals but they still look good in a tank.

Damm your PGE bill is crazy. I live in SF and I do have a care discount because I don't make sufficient money but my entire bill for a 2 bedroom townhome with gas and electricity is $186 and the care discount is $77. Also, I am signed up with CleanPowerSF so I by from them but not sure how much difference it makes.

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I do want to get some dbtc from you. But my tank is not 6 months yet. So now I'm just trying to buy from local (prefer members) and get some pif.
 
Oh yeah, let’s not forget that buckets of salt is a recurring expense! Consider how much a weekly or monthly water change costs, but you can’t really avoid doing it if you want to keep your fish and corals healthy!
 
Oh yeah, let’s not forget that buckets of salt is a recurring expense! Consider how much a weekly or monthly water change costs, but you can’t really avoid doing it if you want to keep your fish and corals healthy!
There are plenty of tanks ran with no or very little water changes. It just requires spending in a different area and maintaining trace elements. I'm not exactly sure which is cheaper than the other. And of course with dosing trace and no wc you'll still at least want to have some salt on hand in case if an emergency water change is deemed necessary.

The other side to think about in terms of trying to save money is if saving money means taking short cuts it may risk your coral health which can be much more money at risk than just paying out for items that would provide good husbandry in the first place.

I.e. I'm taking a slight chance by using a no name pH monitor as it may not provide the reliability or accuracy needed in the long term. But I do have a 2nd manual pH checker if I feel the readings I'm getting are off nominal.
 
For people who want solar but haven't been paying attention, be aware they passed the new net metering.

If you want the old metering rates (you do) the project needs to start by April 1 I believe. I think that just means to apply for permits. But yeah, gotta get moving.
Yes, the clock is running out before Nem 2 goes to Nem 3 and PG&E pays you a lot less for solar credits.
 
Yes, the clock is running out before Nem 2 goes to Nem 3 and PG&E pays you a lot less for solar credits.
And based off the history of PG&E constantly rewriting and sending in proposals to the CPUC, I expect NEM4 and 5 and 6 until they finally get to a point where they can argue they shouldn't have to credit much less pay anyone for power
 
Is it possible to save money by buying right the first time? Feels like many of us have multiple versions/vendors/etc of the same thing? Maybe we call it an upgrade or a bad first sizing. I'm just wondering how much gear is currently running VS how much is in a box in the garage, under the tank, etc and not in use any longer? A quick way to spend money is to spend it twice or, to @richiev 's point, DIY it once and then buy it once?
This is a great discussion.
My two cents on this aspect is that there is no right anything in this hobby - there is just what the hobbyist understands to be the case right now, and that changes over time as the hobbyist learns, gains experience, and understands what they want & are trying to accomplish (those all kinda mean the same thing). This is the reason that reef recipies also don't work very well. In almost any hobby, I recommend a beginner start knowing that the first stuff they buy will likely not work for them in the future. It is one of the reasons that I think in this hobby people should start small.
To the larger point, they hobby costs whatever you are willing to spend on it, and that is different for everyone.
 
A key thing to remember regarding Solar:

Baseline cost = $0.18 per KWH
100% - 200% = $0.24
200% + = $0.4
(Average, multiply that by time of use, etc)
And of course add all the fixed fees.

So: You save big if you can bring the 200% down to 100% or baseline, and you do not really need to sell back on
the grid or use batteries.
But reducing baseline is a very marginal return on investment in the panels.
 
A key thing to remember regarding Solar:

Baseline cost = $0.18 per KWH
100% - 200% = $0.24
200% + = $0.4
(Average, multiply that by time of use, etc)
And of course add all the fixed fees.

So: You save big if you can bring the 200% down to 100% or baseline, and you do not really need to sell back on
the grid or use batteries.
But reducing baseline is a very marginal return on investment in the panels.
If you’re running all electric already that’s true. We aimed for 120% simply because we use our gas furnace, gas ranges, gas water heater, and we’re dual electric cars. Also a majority of the costs are fixed so going from 20 to 40 panels is not a linear jump in cost if you shop around. A coworker of mine paid more than me for half the panels

Our bill without solar is in the winter. this is us keeping the thermostat at 66-68. We’re gonna be looking at some electric room heaters when they’re on sale in the summer
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We seem to have shifted this to a discussion of electrical usage. Well if that's the case, I guess swapping out old appliances for more efficient ones would be helpful. Or running them during the cheap off peak hours. I have a circa 1980's KitchenAid dish washer. I'm guessing it's not the most efficient thing ever.
 
We seem to have shifted this to a discussion of electrical usage. Well if that's the case, I guess swapping out old appliances for more efficient ones would be helpful. Or running them during the cheap off peak hours. I have a circa 1980's KitchenAid dish washer. I'm guessing it's not the most efficient thing ever.
Lol we have accepted the costs of reefing. Our 80’s dishwasher finally died, it didn’t work that well since they took the phosphate(or something) out of the detergent. Been waiting for airport home appliance to deliver a Bosch 800 since July.
 
Lol we have accepted the costs of reefing. Our 80’s dishwasher finally died, it didn’t work that well since they took the phosphate(or something) out of the detergent. Been waiting for airport home appliance to deliver a Bosch 800 since July.

They were so backed up last year, I don’t think they’ll ever catch up. I ordered one in July 2021 and didn’t get it until August 2022.
 
RE electrical, lighting is the obvious big one, but some ideas:
  • lights
    • spotlight instead of broad coverage (and ignore the downsides of shadows)
    • lights closer to water (warning you might kill the light)
    • shallower tank
    • focus the intensity and spectrum on your goals -- if you're just keeping it stable, presumably you can ramp down either light or photoperiod. If you're looking for growth, focus on growth spectrum
    • hours of use -- max intensity during non-peak hours
  • pumps
    • coral placement -- place corals near powerheads if they need the power, ramp down power accordingly
    • return pumps pushing up is likely more wasted energy than powerheads pushing in the tank
  • heat -- I feel this is a big one that's super easy to ignore, I have kasa smart outlets on my heaters and the amount of kWh I'm blowing on heat is insane
    • don't keep your saltwater reservoirs hot & aerated 24x7x365. Put it on a smart plug and flip it on when you need it, or for off-peak hours a day
    • reduce evap -- covered top would reduce evap, and act as insulation for probably the largest surface area. Gotcha is CO2 exchange, but maybe that's solvable with a bigger skimmer. I wonder if a covered top with a fan and a small air intake on the cover would also still be good while reducing evap/heat loss
    • insulate -- I don't think this is realistic in some cases, but I imagine we could be doing some insulation. Throw something on the hidden walls. Wrap the sump
    • think about room temp vs heater temp -- a heat pump is way more efficient than these heaters, and a furnace presumably is as well. Maybe keeping the aquarium room a bit warmer would be a reasonable trade off (would be interesting for someone to calc that)
 
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