Coral reefer
Past President
Do you want to keep healthy stony corals?
I dont test my water parameters:(
- Thread starter TwinsReef
- Start date
Alexander1312
Supporting Member
I did not know AFR was carbon dosing. I thought they had different products for that such as NP Bacto balance etc.
Coral reefer
Past President
The way it works is different than two Part. I forget exactly how it works, but I think there is some sort of action required with bacteria to free up the alk part. It’s more complicated to work with in reality when it seems like it will be more simple because it’s just one thing.
Alexander1312
Supporting Member
Very interesting, thank you. The pico tank suffers a bit from low nutrients and I certainly did not intend to do carbon dosing for this tank. I still have the ESV two-part so will dose this now until I have a dosing pump for kalk for this tank.
It is different, it uses calcium formate to be able to mix the Ca and "alk" components in one solution without precipitation. It's actually a pretty elegant way of doing it, but it isn't what's in elimi-NP and NP bacto balance (that's the algae derived carbon source also used in their bio actif salt that Lou Ekus says doesn't promote the same "bad/pathogenic" bacterial growth that sugar/vinegar dosing might).
The thing is that since the bacteria are consuming it 24/7, there's a delay in results before parameters rise (good and bad as @L/B Block mentioned if you overdose). But their consumption also creates CO2 and organic acids that drop your pH. So if you're someone who deals with chronic low pH it could be an inconvenience.
Edit: also for pico and small nano tanks, you usually can fix things cheapest with big water changes.
grizfyrfyter
Guest
Testing in this hobby and the test methods and accuracy are not an exact science. Double check your results if it prescribes a large change in any parameter.
Salinity accuracy is the most crucial. If your salinity is unknowingly low, it's going to be a nightmare of dosing to keep stable parameters when you want them. I recommend a data validation method. I use a hydrometer and a refractometer. I order calibration solution every 6 months and keep it sealed to avoid evaporation. You can also find the mix ratio (by weight) to create a sample of your reef salts at an exact salinity to compare your calibration fluid. Poorly calibrated salinity testing methods are common.
Your tank is probably mature enough that you don't need to worry about ammonia or nitrite. It's nice having a kit on hand in case something seems way off or you know something died or disappeared and you want to see if you have/had an ammonia spike.
Calcium is probably the least important of the three main ones. I use API tests for my calcium. It's cheap, simple, widely available and accurate enough for my piece of mind.
If you're not fine tuning alkalinity in a fast growing system full of sps corals, you don't even need anything as precise as a salifert kit. API can be a cheap kit and at 1dkh resolution, it's good enough for a young tank with low uptake.
Magnesium is slow to change and it takes big changes to have a negative effect. These kits are more expensive and more complicated, though Salifert new version is the simplest one I have seen yet and the most affordable last time I checked.
Nitrate and phosphate are something you're going to want some precision but don't get caught up chasing numbers. Most test kits are difficult to read at lower values or fine resolutions. The Hanna tests are nice for this but pricey.
My advice is note the test values of your tank when it's happy. If you want to chase numbers, chase those. Even if your values don't match what's in the ocean or the last beautiful tank you saw, your corals will find their happy place as long as it's safe and stable.
Salinity accuracy is the most crucial. If your salinity is unknowingly low, it's going to be a nightmare of dosing to keep stable parameters when you want them. I recommend a data validation method. I use a hydrometer and a refractometer. I order calibration solution every 6 months and keep it sealed to avoid evaporation. You can also find the mix ratio (by weight) to create a sample of your reef salts at an exact salinity to compare your calibration fluid. Poorly calibrated salinity testing methods are common.
Your tank is probably mature enough that you don't need to worry about ammonia or nitrite. It's nice having a kit on hand in case something seems way off or you know something died or disappeared and you want to see if you have/had an ammonia spike.
Calcium is probably the least important of the three main ones. I use API tests for my calcium. It's cheap, simple, widely available and accurate enough for my piece of mind.
If you're not fine tuning alkalinity in a fast growing system full of sps corals, you don't even need anything as precise as a salifert kit. API can be a cheap kit and at 1dkh resolution, it's good enough for a young tank with low uptake.
Magnesium is slow to change and it takes big changes to have a negative effect. These kits are more expensive and more complicated, though Salifert new version is the simplest one I have seen yet and the most affordable last time I checked.
Nitrate and phosphate are something you're going to want some precision but don't get caught up chasing numbers. Most test kits are difficult to read at lower values or fine resolutions. The Hanna tests are nice for this but pricey.
My advice is note the test values of your tank when it's happy. If you want to chase numbers, chase those. Even if your values don't match what's in the ocean or the last beautiful tank you saw, your corals will find their happy place as long as it's safe and stable.
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As to PH with AFR-I can’t recall if it actually depresses PH or not. I started using it after I implemented soda lime/PK combo to raise PH regardless. That combo nets me about 8.28-8.30 (daily average with swing between 8.25-8.4 depending). Without it and using AFR -my PH might sink to around 7.9-8.0 -not bad but not great either.
My thinking is no on that -one or the other. They both serve the same purpose
Perhaps someone has the video link that Kenny put up about it. Looks simple enough-
You can of course, but it's unlikely you'll need it unless you have crazy consumption. At that point, most just use a calcium reactor.
Coral reefer
Past President
It aren’t you feeding bacteria and relying on them to do the worm for you? Seems like feeding bacteria is feeding bacteria to me and will have the effect of “carbon dosing”
Kinda yeah, but way less energy is produced after it's broken down vs. a sugar or carbohydrate. So you're not going to see out of control bacterial growth, even in an overdose situation.
Lots of good advice here. The fact that it’s not all in the same direction tells you there are many paths to success here. Especially in a low-consumption tank, where basically anything can work (other than not using a system lol).
Regarding the All-For-Reef topic- as Thomas mentioned the main component is a precursor (calcium formate) that is metabolized by bacteria into the active Ca and Alk components. AFR also includes Mg, minor and trace elements, which is nice. In the process of converting the precursor, it is a carbon source for the bacteria, which will also take up N and P from your water to grow. So it has similar effects as other carbon dosing in that it will depress your pH (like all metabolism does), lower your nitrate, lower your phosphate. At low doses none of these effects are really noticeable since it doesn’t require much metabolic conversion to produce small to moderate amounts of Ca and Alk. At high doses (for high-consumption tanks) these effects become very noticeable and can crash a tank (like it did for me). Also as was mentioned already, there is a variable delay between dosing AFR and seeing your Alk numbers increase, in the range of a few hours to half a day or so. Adjustments are more like driving a tanker ship than a car.
Kalkwasser (calcium hydroxide) is awesome. Supplies Ca, Alk, and increases pH in one easy solution. The main drawbacks are that it isn’t very soluable so you are dosing large amounts (potentially limited by evaporation) and you basically have to use a doser to give tiny amounts throughout the period because of the strong pH effects. One certainly could combine it with AFR as your alkalinity consumption increases and the pH effects would balance nicely while still only requiring 2 things to dose.
What I recommend is to start with 2-part (or 3-part etc) until you get a handle on how these things work and how to dial them in. It’s simple and effective, with much better control over variables. You could probably also just start with Kalkwasser, but the reason I don’t recommend it for beginners is that it’s easier to hurt things with the potential pH swings if you mess up.
You need to test regularly for alkalinity if you keep LPS or SPS. Salifert is easy, reliable, and cheap. The others are less important but you’ll want to test them every once in a while as discussed by others above.
Regarding the All-For-Reef topic- as Thomas mentioned the main component is a precursor (calcium formate) that is metabolized by bacteria into the active Ca and Alk components. AFR also includes Mg, minor and trace elements, which is nice. In the process of converting the precursor, it is a carbon source for the bacteria, which will also take up N and P from your water to grow. So it has similar effects as other carbon dosing in that it will depress your pH (like all metabolism does), lower your nitrate, lower your phosphate. At low doses none of these effects are really noticeable since it doesn’t require much metabolic conversion to produce small to moderate amounts of Ca and Alk. At high doses (for high-consumption tanks) these effects become very noticeable and can crash a tank (like it did for me). Also as was mentioned already, there is a variable delay between dosing AFR and seeing your Alk numbers increase, in the range of a few hours to half a day or so. Adjustments are more like driving a tanker ship than a car.
Kalkwasser (calcium hydroxide) is awesome. Supplies Ca, Alk, and increases pH in one easy solution. The main drawbacks are that it isn’t very soluable so you are dosing large amounts (potentially limited by evaporation) and you basically have to use a doser to give tiny amounts throughout the period because of the strong pH effects. One certainly could combine it with AFR as your alkalinity consumption increases and the pH effects would balance nicely while still only requiring 2 things to dose.
What I recommend is to start with 2-part (or 3-part etc) until you get a handle on how these things work and how to dial them in. It’s simple and effective, with much better control over variables. You could probably also just start with Kalkwasser, but the reason I don’t recommend it for beginners is that it’s easier to hurt things with the potential pH swings if you mess up.
You need to test regularly for alkalinity if you keep LPS or SPS. Salifert is easy, reliable, and cheap. The others are less important but you’ll want to test them every once in a while as discussed by others above.
Coral reefer
Past President
I personally dose AFR during the day and Kalk at night in my frag tank. AFR gives me a variety of minerals, Kalk gives me pH and more alk/Ca. I'm happy with the combo. That plus water changes keeps things happy.
If you're not doing even testing right now, I personally would vote for water changes and then AFR. Very few dosing options are as easy as AFR. Kalk isn't, because you need to be careful to avoid param swings, and it's hard to keep the solution consistent and stable. 2-part is pretty easy, but it's 2 not one, and needs to be dosed separately. If you're really lazy, you can toss a low dose of AFR into your ATO water and be pretty safe. Not ideal, but a lot safer than adding Kalk directly/to ATO, and you can't mix All+Ca in your ATO.
If you're not doing even testing right now, I personally would vote for water changes and then AFR. Very few dosing options are as easy as AFR. Kalk isn't, because you need to be careful to avoid param swings, and it's hard to keep the solution consistent and stable. 2-part is pretty easy, but it's 2 not one, and needs to be dosed separately. If you're really lazy, you can toss a low dose of AFR into your ATO water and be pretty safe. Not ideal, but a lot safer than adding Kalk directly/to ATO, and you can't mix All+Ca in your ATO.
TwinsReef
Supporting Member
Coral reefer
Past President
Then learn to check ca
Patio
Supporting Member
before dossers came down in price and availability years ago, it was fairly common to gravity drip from a two liter bottle or gallon jug each night. It was scary trusting the knot tied in the airline tubing was done well enough to have a nice slow drip. Now i enjoy having a kalk reactor coupled with weekly water change.
old school budget friendly lol (from google image):
old school budget friendly lol (from google image):