Kessil

impact of carbon dosing on SPS?

L

L/B Block

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So for those who carbon dose and have a lot of SPS-could you tell any difference per se in anything visually or chemically ? I had wrote another thread about issues with SPS. @tribbitt had mentioned carbon dosing being a possible culprit. I had incidentally been reducing it back from 1.6 ml (66% of max dose) to 1.3 (54% of max dose) to 1.0 ml currently (40%) due the re- introduction of lanth (and then having to dose nitrate so trying to reduce carbon dosing as not to have to do that.) Changing from 1.6 to 1.3 did nothing, but reducing to 1.0 did. A week later -over 24 hours, my DKH suddenly dropped near 1.0. At first I thought it was the AFR line being occluded. Confirmed it was not. My understanding is that with carbon dosing-bacteria are more effective at getting at nitrogen than corals and hence stifling growth ?

Just something I have never seen discussed.
 
Here are some of my thoughts when I was going through all that stuff with my frag tank that was predominately sps.

I believe, it is possible, that coral are negatively affected by carbon dosing. That depends entirely on your biome that results from the carbon dosing.

Things like acetate versus specific polymers target different forms of heterotrophs. With that said, I like carbon dosing. Anecdotally, I believe carbon was a big contributor to the SCTLD that I had going through my frags at the time.

I do feel that carbon dosing is a potential food for coral, and as long as nitrogen is present in the system any sequestering of nitrogen by bacteria over corals is likely not significant.

I haven't read anything on this in over a year, but before I stopped paying attention, studies showed corals were using their slime coats to fight off pathogens but also capture food. Which is where I think a nitrogen rich bacteria would be the source.

My understanding is dated though so there may be new information out there.
 
I like @Blaise006 response, specifically as it relates your biome and the polymer reference, and the food aspect.

Also, probably if you are using vodka.

TM Elimi NP and FM Bacto Energy should not cause any direct meaningful growth impairments if any, other than (!) by suppressing PH - this however, is a downside and I agree that higher PH leads to better growth. But despite my poor PH, corals still grow very well.

For nitrate reduction, carbon dosing and potentially zeolite (tbc) are the best options IMO - downsides are PH decrease and Barium increase respectively. Water changes might help, but only short term. So not much else left.
 
Blaise006 said:
Here are some of my thoughts when I was going through all that stuff with my frag tank that was predominately sps.

I believe, it is possible, that coral are negatively affected by carbon dosing. That depends entirely on your biome that results from the carbon dosing.

Things like acetate versus specific polymers target different forms of heterotrophs. With that said, I like carbon dosing. Anecdotally, I believe carbon was a big contributor to the SCTLD that I had going through my frags at the time.

I do feel that carbon dosing is a potential food for coral, and as long as nitrogen is present in the system any sequestering of nitrogen by bacteria over corals is likely not significant.

I haven't read anything on this in over a year, but before I stopped paying attention, studies showed corals were using their slime coats to fight off pathogens but also capture food. Which is where I think a nitrogen rich bacteria would be the source.

My understanding is dated though so there may be new information out there.
[/QUOTE_]

Interesting.
Click to expand...
 
To be clear I am not villainizing carbon dosing which certainly can be a very successful method. Organic carbon is crucial to the ecosystem and iirc some corals do consume bacterioplankton.

But if coral is mysteriously dying off this is a thing to look at imo, given the evidence that excess organic carbon appears to contribute to coral disease and mortality
 
Blaise006 said:
Anecdotally, I believe carbon was a big contributor to the SCTLD that I had going through my frags at the time.

I do feel that carbon dosing is a potential food for coral, and as long as nitrogen is present in the system any sequestering of nitrogen by bacteria over corals is likely not significant.
Click to expand...

I agree with this sentiment. I do not think that the bacteria are scavenging dissolved nitrogen more aggressively than corals.
Instead I think negative effects probably stem from proliferation of copiotrophic “harmful bacteria” which contribute to coral stress, disease, mortality

@Blaise006 I’m curious about your experience with SCTLD and what you ended up doing. Considering the conditions which fostered the disease outbreak (like nutrient pollution including organic carbon) it doesn’t surprise me that SCLTLD could be aggravated by organic carbon dosing
 
tribbitt said:
To be clear I am not villainizing carbon dosing which certainly can be a very successful method. Organic carbon is crucial to the ecosystem and iirc some corals do consume bacterioplankton.

But if coral is mysteriously dying off this is a thing to look at imo, given the evidence that excess organic carbon appears to contribute to coral disease and mortality
Click to expand...
That last part is especially important. Refugiums and algae, in general, seemed to release dissolved organic compounds that appeared to be a growth inhibitor to corals. Which, if I am recalling correctly, was linked to excess carbon in the system.

My suspicion is that in a closed ecosystem system with po4 and no3 well above 0, the average system
Is carbon limited and this this is rarely an issue, but we have no way of testing that and very well could be linked to a poor performing reef.
 
tribbitt said:
I agree with this sentiment. I do not think that the bacteria are scavenging dissolved nitrogen more aggressively than corals.
Instead I think negative effects probably stem from proliferation of copiotrophic “harmful bacteria” which contribute to coral stress, disease, mortality

@Blaise006 I’m curious about your experience with SCTLD and what you ended up doing. Considering the conditions which fostered the disease outbreak (like nutrient pollution including organic carbon) it doesn’t surprise me that SCLTLD could be aggravated by organic carbon dosing
Click to expand...
I had a kid and shut down the frag tank. When things were growing, they grew fast and strong. The disease would come in waves over various tenuis then RTN.

I attempted cipro, oxalinic acid, and everything else under the sun. I think the results might be in my frag tank journal. I forget.

Either-way, at the time, there was a group in the keys combatting sctld in the wild. They were using some binding agent and actually molding a substand that held cirp or some other antibiotic in place on the affected areas and were having success. I tried something similar but couldn't figure out a way to bind it without the flesh rotting, or so it seemed to me.
 
Blaise006 said:
I had a kid and shut down the frag tank. When things were growing, they grew fast and strong. The disease would come in waves over various tenuis then RTN.

I attempted cipro, oxalinic acid, and everything else under the sun. I think the results might be in my frag tank journal. I forget.

Either-way, at the time, there was a group in the keys combatting sctld in the wild. They were using some binding agent and actually molding a substand that held cirp or some other antibiotic in place on the affected areas and were having success. I tried something similar but couldn't figure out a way to bind it without the flesh rotting, or so it seemed to me.
Click to expand...

If you want some bedtime reading:

news.mongabay.com

Scientists trial chlorine as gentler alternative to antibiotics to fight coral disease

ANTANANARIVO — Researchers studying a coral disease that has devastated reefs across the Caribbean say they’ve come up with a promising treatment that avoids the long-term harm associated with antibiotics, currently the most effective remedy. In a study published November 2024 in Frontiers in...
news.mongabay.com news.mongabay.com
 
I believe only weak corals are (potentially) impacted by high carbon, primarily dosed with simple carbon solutions such as vinegar and vodka.

High FSS parameters should provide enough protection for corals, at least I am not hearing any of these horror stories from folks who run high fluoride, strontium, and sulfur parameters consistently.

I sometimes wonder if we are too stuck with decade-old practices causing decade old problems, and trying to answer reef tank issues with ocean-based observations.

For those who want to try reaching these parameters and see if they still seeing these issues with their SPS:

Fluoride: 1.7 mg/L
Strontium: 8.5 mg/L
Sulfur: 950 mg/L

Not easy to reach these, but once you do, your corals might see less issues from occasional swings and changes in this volatile at home habitat. Or at a minimum need less medication which are constantly flying around here.
 
Alexander1312 said:
I believe only weak corals are (potentially) impacted by high carbon, primarily dosed with simple carbon solutions such as vinegar and vodka.

High FSS parameters should provide enough protection for corals, at least I am not hearing any of these horror stories from folks who run high fluoride, strontium, and sulfur parameters consistently.

I sometimes wonder if we are too stuck with decade-old practices causing decade old problems, and trying to answer reef tank issues with ocean-based observations.

For those who want to try reaching these parameters and see if they still seeing these issues with their SPS:

Fluoride: 1.7 mg/L
Strontium: 8.5 mg/L
Sulfur: 950 mg/L

Not easy to reach these, but once you do, your corals might see less issues from occasional swings and changes in this volatile at home habitat. Or at a minimum need less medication which are constantly flying around here.
Click to expand...
Whats the thinking with those three? Fluoride especially feels like a thread the needle situation but Im not really basing that on anything.
 
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