got ethical husbandry?

Tang Compatibility

Who knows what happiness looks like or means to a fish. It’s hard enough to define in people, and they are evolved and wired just like us and can talk. Lots of people with what look like great environments are miserable and the opposite is true too. It seems more inherent than environment based to people who study this.

One objective marker might be whether or not they reach their full size. Tangs in captivity don’t. No matter what size tank you have, short of many thousands of gallons. They grow to a tiny fraction of their size/weight vs what we see in the wild. So at some level their physiology is certainly not “happy” to be in our tanks.
 
ReyDeFarts said:
Thanks for chiming in. I did think about your tank, but I wasn't certain about the quantities and which genus you have. Did you get all of them at the same time? Or introduce them at different times?
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They've been added at all different times, sometimes in multiples and sometimes in singles. The PBT was first and people usually say to add these last, but mine has been a gentleman. Maybe I am just very lucky, but my experience with tangs is very different from most of the dogma that's out there already.

Acclimation box, mirrors, shitloads of food, and a decent amount of space. I think these are the important things. I wouldn't put a tang in a tank less than 6 feet, with the exception of the smaller cteno varieties. I think the smaller zebras (yellow, scopas) can maybe be ok in 4ft. But honestly 6ft is probably too small for my PBT and most acanthurus, IMO.
 
Coral reefer said:
I don’t think the size tanks any of us have a “big enough” for most tangs. Some like the yellow do not swim fast in the ocean, and live in large groups, but still cover large areas. Other like the Achilles swim FAST and all over. No way a tank is big enough for them
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Oh for sure. I agree that in general any of our tanks are way too small. I meant more like, can they be content. Can they feel secure and enjoy their existence. I know neither of us can say yes or no to that question. Some folks are only content traveling the world and every crevice of every cave imaginable. Others are content sitting at home playing games inside a bedroom. The human emotion side of me is curious if they too can feel content as well in a different environment.
JVU said:
Who knows what happiness looks like or means to a fish. It’s hard enough to define in people
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Totally agree with you! It's that weird section of my brain that wants to humanize our pets that makes me curious if they can express gratitude or appreciation. Can they become calmer than is typically experienced because of factors within our control? Maybe specific environments in our setups can help them feel safer and allow for more harmony.

I have zero experience with tangs, so I'm just learning. But I definitely have seen some gut wrenching tank setups where it just made me sad. So my approach is to try and make them "happy" as best as I can tell from my observations.

derek_SR said:
I wouldn't put a tang in a tank less than 6 feet, with the exception of the smaller cteno varieties. I think the smaller zebras (yellow, scopas) can maybe be ok in 4ft.
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6' 180gal currently with 3 acanthurus :oops: (Lieutenant, Orange Shoulder, and a Convict) and a Scopus. They came from the tank breakdown as a group where they all got along. They were introduced together from previous owner and came with me together, where they continue to get along great from what I have observed. I have a blue-eyed Kole that has been hanging out in a much too small of a holding tank. I've tried to sell him because I got nervous about adding it to this group. But I was thibking it is the only genus not represented in this tank. So I was thinking about adding him. I also have a couple smaller koles (2-3" juveniles) inside other tanks with the hopes of growing them out and introducing them into other tanks.

Here is another observation I have seen. Using larger tangs in frag systems as utility fish? Seeing kole tangs or other species in 50-60 gallon frag tanks? I would have assumed that is quite frowned upon, but yet I see it. We just accept it because they're just workers and not display fish? Would it be ok to put a 4-5" kole into a 50gal frag tank to put in some work? IDK...
 
ReyDeFarts said:
Oh for sure. I agree that in general any of our tanks are way too small. I meant more like, can they be content. Can they feel secure and enjoy their existence. I know neither of us can say yes or no to that question. Some folks are only content traveling the world and every crevice of every cave imaginable. Others are content sitting at home playing games inside a bedroom. The human emotion side of me is curious if they too can feel content as well in a different environment.

Totally agree with you! It's that weird section of my brain that wants to humanize our pets that makes me curious if they can express gratitude or appreciation. Can they become calmer than is typically experienced because of factors within our control? Maybe specific environments in our setups can help them feel safer and allow for more harmony.

I have zero experience with tangs, so I'm just learning. But I definitely have seen some gut wrenching tank setups where it just made me sad. So my approach is to try and make them "happy" as best as I can tell from my observations.


6' 180gal currently with 3 acanthurus :oops: (Lieutenant, Orange Shoulder, and a Convict) and a Scopus. They came from the tank breakdown as a group where they all got along. They were introduced together from previous owner and came with me together, where they continue to get along great from what I have observed. I have a blue-eyed Kole that has been hanging out in a much too small of a holding tank. I've tried to sell him because I got nervous about adding it to this group. But I was thibking it is the only genus not represented in this tank. So I was thinking about adding him. I also have a couple smaller koles (2-3" juveniles) inside other tanks with the hopes of growing them out and introducing them into other tanks.

Here is another observation I have seen. Using larger tangs in frag systems as utility fish? Seeing kole tangs or other species in 50-60 gallon frag tanks? I would have assumed that is quite frowned upon, but yet I see it. We just accept it because they're just workers and not display fish? Would it be ok to put a 4-5" kole into a 50gal frag tank to put in some work? IDK...
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I think some fish - at least rabbitfish and tangs - can display quite a bit of personality. I am pretty confident my rabbitfish is "happy" in some sense. He plays in the flow, makes funny grunting noises when he wants food or attention, blows bubbles, teases and plays with other fish, and is generally just a good boy. Some of my tangs are similar. I sort of see the fish like dogs - if they are relatively calm, submissive, and engaged - then they are doing pretty good.

I kept a 3" tomini tang (a ctenochaetus - a small version of what I think is the smallest tang available) in my 2ft frag tank when I first got him for a while. He NEVER settled in - surfed the glass, was super skittish, hid a lot, didn't really do any work, and was clearly "not happy." I moved him into my DT (when I added the two yellows recently) and his entire demeanor changed. He's out more, picks at the rocks, is calm, interacts with other fish, gets excited for food, explores his environment, etc. It's like night and day.
 
In the ocean, naso tangs sail a hundred feet in a blink. You can see this at many public aquariums.

If you imagine 200 gallon tank sitting at the bottom of a reef, it’s like a teaspoon in a bathtub. Who knows if the fish care. But from the “tank size” argument, I agree with @Coral reefer that our tanks aren’t the same - so be careful when trying to replicate things that you see, like crowds of tangs.
 
Patio said:
reefs.com

Skeptical Reefkeeping 7: A look at Ethics

By Richard Ross Ethical discussion about almost every area of reefkeeping has been a part of the hobby for as long as the hobby has existed - What size tank
reefs.com reefs.com
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Thanks for sharing this. How do you see yourself and your livestock in regard to ethical husbandry?

Great article and thanks @Thales
The ethics of the pet "trade" is a difficult beast to tackle or discuss.

tribbitt said:
But from the “tank size” argument, I agree with @Coral reefer that our tanks aren’t the same
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Yup. I agree with that as well. I couldn't imagine a group of same species of tangs unless it was a very large aquarium, likely a public sized type. Even then, I imagine that could prove problematic.
 
ReyDeFarts said:
How do you see yourself and your livestock in regard to ethical husbandry?
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Maybe somewhere in the middle of the spectrum of others, although I hope better than average. Hard to grade myself.

It takes mental gymnastics for me to justify my participation in the hobby sometimes. To help with that, I try my best. But trying my best might be different than others trying their best. You are good at asking tough questions :)
 
Patio said:
Maybe somewhere in the middle of the spectrum of others, although I hope better than average. Hard to grade myself.
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Yeah... I feel as a newbie sometimes it can be difficult to actually know the right and wrong. And I have seen some folks getting blasted by long time keepers for their ignorance, versus taking it as an opportunity for education. I caught myself doing that a couple times in the reptile hobby and it took getting checked by a mentor. But I feel the same way as you.
Patio said:
It takes mental gymnastics for me to justify my participation in the hobby sometimes. To help with that, I try my best. But trying my best might be different than others trying their best. You are good at asking tough questions :)
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Totally agree! There are so many things about this hobby that are completely hypocritical in regard to being environmentally conscious. Absolutely opposite sides of the spectrum with some things and it definitely makes me cringe. But yes, I want to try my best as you said.
 
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