Why do easy sps die in a new tank and why is coral so easy to grow after 18 months?

[H2OPlayar]

I was wondering this recently. My 300 has all dosing set and a huge water volume, so no major swings. On my old tank, I found that once the tank hit 12 months, and really when it hit 18 months, coral growth took off. Does anyone know the mechanism as to why things like Seriatopora (birdsnest), Stylophora, and Montipora do so much better in a tank once it hits 12-18 months? I just watched 3 birdsnest frags die slowly and it is frustrating with everything tuned. The tank and much of the rock/rubble is only 10 months old at this point, but it has stopped leeching high levels of phosphate out.

I don't buy the cause being phosphate, nitrate, alk swings, ph or the other standard testable parameters because all of that is controlled pretty well and tested for regularly as well as those numbers being the same in my old tank once it hit the 18+ month mark. Bacteria is my only thought, but I have lots of sources of good bacteria including rubble from my old tank and live rock from two different vendors a couple of months ago. If people do believe bacteria, then Eric is right and I should get one of his genesis blocks mailed out, but it still doesn't completely make sense with all of my other sources of good bacteria.

Discuss please!

 

[Turkeysammich]

Foundation is the building blocks for any good aquarium. Doesn’t matter if it’s coral or fish. A new aquarium even with old rock is still new. No micro organisms micro bacteria micro fauna etc. on anything.
Now having said that. There’s people like @RandyC that can start with dead rock and sps. And it will grow because they are introducing the micro on the sps. But they are so intuned to their dialing in and all the minor details that it grows and the micros multiply.
Unfortunately the rest of us. Need foundation and a solid one. Before anything grows.
That’s just my simple answer.

 

[Turkeysammich]

Here’s another thought. Every time we add or remove something from our aquarium. It changes the biological composition. Then it takes time for the adjustment to level out again. Example is I had a cryptic sone in my 320. I removed the rocks from the cryptic zone and 2 large bio bricks in my sump. To set up the 168. Shouldn’t change anything right ? Nope. Huge cyano problem and ick outbreak. Even tho I didn’t mess with anything in the DT. I altered the bio mass. I’ve noticed this over the years. Minor changes are ok. It will level out. Large removals have side effects. Cyptic zone was only about 20-25 lbs of rocks too.

 

[derek_SR]

This is a topic I have often though about since I set up my first tank 3 years ago.

My first two tanks I set up with dry rock, and they were miserable experiences. I never had any luck with Acros (some LPS and easy SPS did OK).

My recent tank (nearly 2 years old now) was set up with 100% live rock, sourced mostly from TBS with a couple pieces from Kenny. The rocks were super fresh and I experienced very little die-off. I added a TON of coral and fish pretty much in the first 3-4 days, and the acropora started growing immediately and have grown ever since.

A large percentage of live rock was certainly key for me, and seems to be the case with lots of folks. This is no surprise, I guess the question is why? My theories:

1. Bacteria / microbiome. Like Will says, bacteria seems to be a big deal. I don't think this can be replicated with anything in a bottle - most of them seem to have junk bacteria in them anyway based on the aquabiomics testing people have done. I think that's all snake oil (in terms of accelerating an acropora-growing microbiome, that is. Fritz turbostart has been shown to rapidly develop nitrfying bacteria for the purpose of tank cycling).

2. Sponge growth. The other big difference between new tanks and mature ones are the sponges. I'll try to dig up the papers I read, but there seems to be some sort of relationship between sponges, DOC, and coral growth. It's also a tangible thing that "matures" in tanks and could partly explain the difference between a fresh tank and an established one. It's also why there's no easy way to shortcut this process other than starting with live rock that has a bunch of sponge on it already.

3. Coral density. Jake Adams used to set up tanks with a shitload of coral on Day 1. I think this is essentially the same as starting with live rock, if you start with enough of it. Like @Turkeysammich says above, coral bring a lot of good stuff in. And I think people tend to go too slow with it, but (in my opinion/experience) if you add enough of it right away it acts as a sort of kick-start towards maturity.

4. Dumb luck. We can really only test for like 1% of what is actually going on in our tanks? I was texting with @dangalang about this re: my alk swing, but people tend to "blame" the things they can test for (alk, nutrients, ph). Think about all of the bacteria and incredibly complex processes we can't test for and don't understand, these things are probably more often the reason your tank does what it does, good or bad. And without really being able to understand "it" or test "it" we're really just at the mercy of things we don't understand. And I think some people get "lucky" with whatever "it" is and grow corals like crazy (@richiev frag tank is a great example of this) with seemingly little effort, and other struggle for months or years (anyone read Blaise's thread on humble? lol https://humble.fish/community/threads/5-years-later-still-dont-have-a-thriving-reef-or-coral.18326/ ). Think about the huge ranges of these parameters people have success with - the secret to a successful tank is simply not in dialing in alk/ph/nutrients perfectly, there are just too many examples to the contrary. I think these parameters ARE important, but the vast majority of what matters in our tanks can't be tested for and simply isn't well understood, and that's a fact. So I agree with your point @H2OPlayar in that I'm sure your parameters are just fine and not the issue. I also don't believe in your case that "what matures is the reefer" because you are a very experienced reefer, and your first tank is basically what inspired my current tank and emulating your approach was a big part of the start of my current tank.

I don't think this is the case with your new tank, but the oft-repeated dogma to "go slow, wait months and months to add coral, etc etc" is really bad advice and leads to a lot of issues. People start up these tanks with dry rock and a bunch of fancy equipment and blast it with 400 PAR and just grow a shitload of algae and cyano and dinos and it takes forever to develop a functioning ecosystem that's conducive to coral growth. I think starting with enough live rock to nitrify ammonia, then rapidly adding coral and fish to get things "going" is a much better approach, and something experienced reefers tend to do pretty successfully when starting up new tanks.

 

[JVU]

The things we can test for (including ICP) and the things we add as supplements and equipment are a tiny fraction of what’s going on in a healthy reef tank.

When we upgrade tanks and take everything from our old tank and put in a new larger tank, generally it’s fine on day 1. When we put lots of well thought-out separate freshly purchased things into a new tank including everything you can buy in a bottle, it generally has some rocky patches and takes a while to settle and become a good environment. The one thing we know for sure is that we only know a tiny fraction of what is needed. I mean sure, we can say you need the microbiome to be right but we don’t really know what that means down to the organism.

People like to have a feeling that the world makes sense and can be made sense of. So the influencers and companies who make you feel that way become more successful. It’s an illusion though.

 

[H2OPlayar]

Great points all so far.

On my shopping list now is: Foundation (nowhere to be found on brs or swa, I'll keep looking), sponges (all over the cleaning aisle of Albertsons), "unknown complexity", a "shitload" of coral, and patience.

Who wants to place bets on when I stop killing "easy corals"? June 17 is my 1 year wet mark, that is my guess. I wish there were a cool club out here that would give me a stylo frag every month until it survives like BAR. It really is a great club!

I would say that 8-9/10 of my lps are doing well, and the softies I have are solid in there. Funny enough the two acro frags I put in are still solid too. And the other two tanks are working well too, but no hard corals there to screw up.

Keep the discussion going, especially that part where @derek_SR said my old tank was his inspiration. Makes me feel like I am doing something right.

 

[derek_SR]

Great points all so far.

On my shopping list now is: Foundation (nowhere to be found on brs or swa, I'll keep looking), sponges (all over the cleaning aisle of Albertsons), "unknown complexity", a "shitload" of coral, and patience.

Who wants to place bets on when I stop killing "easy corals"? June 17 is my 1 year wet mark, that is my guess. I wish there were a cool club out here that would give me a stylo frag every month until it survives like BAR. It really is a great club!

I would say that 8-9/10 of my lps are doing well, and the softies I have are solid in there. Funny enough the two acro frags I put in are still solid too. And the other two tanks are working well too, but no hard corals there to screw up.

Keep the discussion going, especially that part where @derek_SR said my old tank was his inspiration. Makes me feel like I am doing something right.

My wife uses foundation...I'll ask her where she gets it. Be careful when purchasing sponges that you don't get the ones soaked in cleaning/antimicrobial agents.

 

[Kensington Reefer]

Without reading all of the above...
Adjusting to new environment...
Like I say about fish, old fish live and new fish die (yes, a large generalization, but accurate)

 

[Turkeysammich]

Great points all so far.

On my shopping list now is: Foundation (nowhere to be found on brs or swa, I'll keep looking), sponges (all over the cleaning aisle of Albertsons), "unknown complexity", a "shitload" of coral, and patience.

Who wants to place bets on when I stop killing "easy corals"? June 17 is my 1 year wet mark, that is my guess. I wish there were a cool club out here that would give me a stylo frag every month until it survives like BAR. It really is a great club!

I would say that 8-9/10 of my lps are doing well, and the softies I have are solid in there. Funny enough the two acro frags I put in are still solid too. And the other two tanks are working well too, but no hard corals there to screw up.

Keep the discussion going, especially that part where @derek_SR said my old tank was his inspiration. Makes me feel like I am doing something right.

I remember one time I went over to your house in Sunnyvale. I commented on your crushed coral #10. About how many pods there were even in the day time. My reference was foundation in that aquarium was great. I just probably seen it down the road of when it was set up. But yeah ain’t nothing but time and micro growth.
Great bio Sand can be your friend with a new aquarium then slowly remove it later.

 

[gmdcdvm]

My tank has been doing really well over the last 6 months (need to post a journal update). Had a cyano issue for a few months that took out some SPS. All of the nuisance algae are pretty much gone and now it is just the light stuff that grows on the glass or sand. The lawmower blenny is always hard at work scraping the rocks. I need to refresh my sand bed since it has slowly been eroded away with water changes. Bought some larger grain sand (sterile), but I worry about adding it and messing up the current stable environment. My plan is to add a cup full at a time during water changes and disperse it throughout the tank. I have been having a hard time motivating because the last thing I want to do is deal with algae issues again.

 

[H2OPlayar]

I remember one time I went over to your house in Sunnyvale. I commented on your crushed coral #10. About how many pods there were even in the day time. My reference was foundation in that aquarium was great. I just probably seen it down the road of when it was set up. But yeah ain’t nothing but time and micro growth.
Great bio Sand can be your friend with a new aquarium then slowly remove it later.

I've got 3" of crushed coral in the tank again, and credit some of the success of the last system to having massive ammounts of biological filtration. I used the same strategy here, so here's to hoping it all ends up the same! I do see tons of pods, but as we discussed above it sounds like patience is really the only thing I can do at this point.

My tank has been doing really well over the last 6 months (need to post a journal update). Had a cyano issue for a few months that took out some SPS. All of the nuisance algae are pretty much gone and now it is just the light stuff that grows on the glass or sand. The lawmower blenny is always hard at work scraping the rocks. I need to refresh my sand bed since it has slowly been eroded away with water changes. Bought some larger grain sand (sterile), but I worry about adding it and messing up the current stable environment. My plan is to add a cup full at a time during water changes and disperse it throughout the tank. I have been having a hard time motivating because the last thing I want to do is deal with algae issues again.

I'd guess your other biology is stable enough you could go ahead and dump your new sand in and let it ride. But that's just my opinion. Your strategy will work better since you are adding less new stuff at a time. I have some of the bacterial cyano killer from tropic marin in the mail, and will update the group as to how that works for me.

Thanks everyone for chiming in. I always like reading your thoughts. It gives me a break from the lack of critical thinking I see in most Las Vegans.

 

[Alexander1312]

I think we are making success in this hobby all too mysterious. Of course, we do not understand enough about these many million-year-old animals, but that does not mean the tank needs to be 18 months old to be growing SPS. What we can test for is enough to run a good reef tank, even if incomplete. I admit that influencing the biome more effectively could be a game-changer.

 

[derek_SR]

I think we are making success in this hobby all too mysterious. Of course, we do not understand enough about these many million-year-old animals, but that does not mean the tank needs to be 18 months old to be growing SPS. What we can test for is enough to run a good reef tank, even if incomplete. I admit that influencing the biome more effectively could be a game-changer.

I think the entire premise of this thread is that what you're saying is almost never the case. I think probably 5% of folks in this hobby (maybe less, honestly) get to the point of growing SPS successfully in a reef tank. Maybe .1% of folks can do it starting with dry rock in less than a year (and when it happens, it's mostly luck IMO).

I agree with part of your sentiment in general though - not that we make it too mysterious, necessarily, but that we often make it MORE complicated and difficult on ourselves than it needs to be.

 

[iani]

Not sure why I was successful, but I did start with dry rock for my current tank. I added a lot of SPS with in the first couple of months. My biggest struggle was definitely microbiome related, primarily regarding stability of nutrients and diatom/cyano blooms. It was a constant battle for the first year or so, but still managed to get SPS growing well in that first year.

 

[Alexander1312]

I think the entire premise of this thread is that what you're saying is almost never the case. I think probably 5% of folks in this hobby (maybe less, honestly) get to the point of growing SPS successfully in a reef tank. Maybe .1% of folks can do it starting with dry rock in less than a year (and when it happens, it's mostly luck IMO).

I agree with part of your sentiment in general though - not that we make it too mysterious, necessarily, but that we often make it MORE complicated and difficult on ourselves than it needs to be.

I read this thread differently. I thought it was not talking about people being inexperienced but new tanks. But if your statement says that not being able to run a tank with successful SPS growth is a matter of knowledge (and skills) vs the tank age, then I tend to agree.

In fact, I find it almost more interesting to discuss why folks cannot easily/easier get that knowledge. I have my own thoughts why, but one is that the communication is often not clear and focused. Often because how folks acquired their knowledge in the past through trial and error, when SPS keeping was almost not possible.

 

[Kensington Reefer]

@H2OPlayar
Those new ones that died on you....
Maybe they couldn’t stand to be away from their mommy, ya know like daycare drop off.

 

[PjFish]

@H2OPlayar
Those new ones that died on you....
Maybe they couldn’t stand to be away from their mommy, ya know like daycare drop off.

Hmm wonder how many reefers have tank separation anxiety? Like when their not home always worrying about the tank!. To much love always changing and dosing chemicals alot in hopes of one more change is the answer can also destabilize and work against you! However at times we step away Murphy shakes his head moves in and messes with heaters/ ato/ battery backups etc... some alot more then others
Does certain bacteria tend to dominate and take over all the diverse bacteria people add either from bottles or rock from all over the world? I'd tend to lean towards a few strains dominating vs numerous always battling! Strain hunters unit!
This topic reminded me of a very similar R2R discussion regarding biodiversity a few years back which some BAR members partook.

"Biodiversity is dead, long live biodiversity" 10 month microbiome data from BRStv.

Likely because there are no replicates and thus no measure of variance. Error bars would tell us a lot on this graphic :) Did they sterilize their hands between tanks while setting them up?

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Kensington Reefer]

Hmm wonder how many reefers have tank separation anxiety? Like when their not home always worrying about the tank!. To much love always changing and dosing chemicals alot in hopes of one more change is the answer can also destabilize and work against you! However at times we step away Murphy shakes his head moves in and messes with heaters/ ato/ battery backups etc... some alot more then others
Does certain bacteria tend to dominate and take over all the diverse bacteria people add either from bottles or rock from all over the world? I'd tend to lean towards a few strains dominating vs numerous always battling! Strain hunters unit!
This topic reminded me of a very similar R2R discussion regarding biodiversity a few years back which some BAR members partook.

"Biodiversity is dead, long live biodiversity" 10 month microbiome data from BRStv.

Likely because there are no replicates and thus no measure of variance. Error bars would tell us a lot on this graphic :) Did they sterilize their hands between tanks while setting them up?

www.reef2reef.com

“Strain” hunters unite!
He he he, ha ha ha

 

[H2OPlayar]

I read this thread differently. I thought it was not talking about people being inexperienced but new tanks. But if your statement says that not being able to run a tank with successful SPS growth is a matter of knowledge (and skills) vs the tank age, then I tend to agree.

In fact, I find it almost more interesting to discuss why folks cannot easily/easier get that knowledge. I have my own thoughts why, but one is that the communication is often not clear and focused. Often because how folks acquired their knowledge in the past through trial and error, when SPS keeping was almost not possible.

This thread is talking about my new tank specifically, but also in general that most people find success after 12-18 months into a tank, myself included with my old system. I tend to agree with Derek, that I have somewhat more knowledge and skills than your average reefer (maybe not average bar member though, we are special) with 8+ years of experience in reefing and constant listening to podcasts on the subject.

I think your average reefer isn't listening to 3-5 podcast episodes on reefs every day the way I do, because they have jobs and a life outside of reefing. Both of which I am lucky to be without.

Hmm wonder how many reefers have tank separation anxiety? Like when their not home always worrying about the tank!.

Me! Maybe not always, but I miss my tank when I leave the house to go grocery shopping. Vacations are worse.


@Kensington Reefer Yeah, not looking good for Madeleine going to day care this year.

I think we are making success in this hobby all too mysterious. Of course, we do not understand enough about these many million-year-old animals, but that does not mean the tank needs to be 18 months old to be growing SPS. What we can test for is enough to run a good reef tank, even if incomplete. I admit that influencing the biome more effectively could be a game-changer.

So what killed my monti's and birdsnest? There are a couple monti's that are dong well, but the 3 birdsnest frags dies in 3 weeks, and a few monti's didn't fare that well either. I test for all the basics and nothing is out of whack. Plus the 330 gallons of water offers some good stability.

 

[RandyC]

This thread is talking about my new tank specifically, but also in general that most people find success after 12-18 months into a tank, myself included with my old system. I tend to agree with Derek, that I have somewhat more knowledge and skills than your average reefer (maybe not average bar member though, we are special) with 8+ years of experience in reefing and constant listening to podcasts on the subject.

I think your average reefer isn't listening to 3-5 podcast episodes on reefs every day the way I do, because they have jobs and a life outside of reefing. Both of which I am lucky to be without.



Me! Maybe not always, but I miss my tank when I leave the house to go grocery shopping. Vacations are worse.


@Kensington Reefer Yeah, not looking good for Madeleine going to day care this year.



So what killed my monti's and birdsnest? There are a couple monti's that are dong well, but the 3 birdsnest frags dies in 3 weeks, and a few monti's didn't fare that well either. I test for all the basics and nothing is out of whack. Plus the 330 gallons of water offers some good stability.

Pests? You have a digital microscope to get a really good look?

Plus, there's always the possibility of the bad bacteria that no one can really tell you if it's there, but it is.