Kalkwasser and SPS dominated Tanks 150-200g
- Thread starter fishy408
- Start date
Ok... so this was 8 years ago. I just do not see how adding kalk powder to a sump would be a good idea. Common practice is to only use the liquid as a certain amount will precipitate when mixed at too high of a ratio. Unless you go with the Meckley methodology which @derek_SR prefers, and it has to do with eliminating precipitation all together by only mixing in a certain amount of kalk per liter of water. That exact recipe I cannot find it at the moment, but I am sure Derek has it written down somewhere next to a portrait of Chris. I believe I heard it on the Reef Bum podcast. I have not tried it myself, since I mix mine until I get precipitation anyway. I have a portrait of Alexander next to by kalkwasser dosing container.
Alexander1312
Supporting Member
Winter is coming...
Alexander1312
Supporting Member
I will try a positive spin on this topic this time, despite a risk of being reported to the club bosses for this.
I allow Kalkwasser in the following circumstances:
- You are an experienced reefer and know the pros and cons of this dosing method.
- You have a bare bottom tank and clean your sump regularly.
- You have an established tank and are not trying to setup a new tank or less than 1-2 year old tank with this.
- You do not solely rely on Kalkwasser for Alk (and CA) dosing.
- You have asked one of the Kalkwasser admirers, specifically those relying on Kalkwasser with 95% of their Alk and CA dosing needs, if they ever tried to turn off their Kalkwasser for a few days (by swtiching to to e.g 2 part dosing) and what happended to their tank, PH etc. If they have not tried this before, I would ask why not.
Otherwise, do not use it. There are more reliable and inexpensive ways with fewer downsides to satisfy your Alk and CA demand. Penny pinching through Kalkwasser might make sense with 300g systems, in which case, I assume you are an experienced reefer and qualify for the use of Kalkwasser as per the rules above.
I allow Kalkwasser in the following circumstances:
- You are an experienced reefer and know the pros and cons of this dosing method.
- You have a bare bottom tank and clean your sump regularly.
- You have an established tank and are not trying to setup a new tank or less than 1-2 year old tank with this.
- You do not solely rely on Kalkwasser for Alk (and CA) dosing.
- You have asked one of the Kalkwasser admirers, specifically those relying on Kalkwasser with 95% of their Alk and CA dosing needs, if they ever tried to turn off their Kalkwasser for a few days (by swtiching to to e.g 2 part dosing) and what happended to their tank, PH etc. If they have not tried this before, I would ask why not.
Otherwise, do not use it. There are more reliable and inexpensive ways with fewer downsides to satisfy your Alk and CA demand. Penny pinching through Kalkwasser might make sense with 300g systems, in which case, I assume you are an experienced reefer and qualify for the use of Kalkwasser as per the rules above.
Haaaa haaaaaa... BUT BUT... that's not supposed to happen when you use kalkwasser?!
LMAOI do believe that kalkwasser dosing does indeed lead to precipitation in the display and binds up traces. An issue I may be experiencing in my 50. The only tank currently on it. The exact amount is not yet known or which traces specifically. But the theory that a sudden shift in a higher pH can dissolve the precipitation But this was the reason for your blasphemous actions of not using it any longer, correct @Alexander1312 ?
Alexander1312
Supporting Member
Haaaa haaaaaa... BUT BUT... that's not supposed to happen when you use kalkwasser?!
I do believe that kalkwasser dosing does indeed lead to precipitation in the display and binds up traces. An issue I may be experiencing in my 50. The only tank currently on it. The exact amount is not yet known or which traces specifically. But the theory that a sudden shift in a higher pH can dissolve the precipitation But this was the reason for your blasphemous actions of not using it any longer, correct @Alexander1312 ?
Broadly yes. High sudden PH increase, higher precipitation, lower PH releases a ton of precipitated stuff back into the water, potentially overwhelming the system. And the high precipitation may lead to stronger algae growth on surfaces, even if PH does not go down. And sadly, it does take time so no one traces back tank crashes to dosing Kalkwasser.
Kalkwasser is a brute force method, while we keep preaching that nothing goes quick in a reef tank. And why are we using it? To save money. So that we can buy new skimmers and lights twice per year, or a second fancy auto feeder.
Now, this post certainly gets reported
.
fishy408
Supporting Member
@Alexander1312, thanks for sharing. It's good to know the possible negative results from using Kalk and something I can keep an eye out in the future.
For myself, Kalk has been great and I haven't experienced any negative effects so far (about a year).
For myself, Kalk has been great and I haven't experienced any negative effects so far (about a year).
- tank is 40g - bare bottom
- The sump is cleaned every two months or so.
Patio
Supporting Member
BOLUS'ing kalkwasser. lol interesting.
I don't really use kalk to save money (and am not really a huge fan of it myself in general) I use it so that I can refill my ATO way less often and refill my 2part jugs way less often - both are tedious chores. I would never in a million years use kalk if I had it in anything smaller than a 40g barrel in the garage. Saving some money on 2part is a nice bonus, although it's kind of a wash if you are using very inexpensive 2part (I am using ESV).
Still, my consumption is going up so rapidly lately I am very soon embarking on the carx journey.
Still, my consumption is going up so rapidly lately I am very soon embarking on the carx journey.
tribbitt
Supporting Member
@Alexander1312 New profile picture really fitting lol
Alexander1312
Supporting Member
Speaking of tedious chores, setting up and calibrating a CARX. Plus the upfront cost. Curious how this will go for you, since you are not known for your patience
, but I this might be a wrong observation of mine.What is an expensive 2 part solution (vs ESV)? This gave me an idea for another thread.
Some folks with <40g Kalkwasser container might feel offended
.Speaking of tedious chores, setting up and calibrating a CARX. Plus the upfront cost. Curious how this will go for you, since you are not known for your patience
What is an expensive 2 part solution (vs ESV)? This gave me an idea for another thread.
Some folks with <40g Kalkwasser container might feel offended
pretty sure like other sps members here, their tank would consume about 1dkh every 2 hours and carx is the only way to keep up with the demand. my tank would consume like 4dkh every 6 hours. once you get to that level, you will understand.
*upfront cost: yes it is expensive, but it will offset that in the long run. i am running a geo 818 with a secondary 618, carbon doser, and kamoer fx-stp with pure limestone media.
*setting up / calibrating: no difference when you are dosing kalk. you are still testing alk and adjust accordingly. setting up a carx it actually easier than you think.
*biggest pro - you are no longer mixing/slurry kalk. before using carx, i was mixing and going through at least 4gal of kalk daily. it got to a point mixing became a chore. i was only able to dose kalk for about 8 months before i had to jump into a carx. media for carx will last longer and minimal adjustments are needed once you dial it in.
*biggest con: you will have low pH cause of the effluent, that is why i use a secondary reactor to offset that. people do still dose kalk ontop of the carx to get the pH higher. my tank is in the man cave aka garage so i have no issues with low pH.
what i did with demand with my sps dominate bb tank:
less than year - water changes
1 - 1.5 years - water changes + dosing kalk + amino acid dosing
1.5 years+ - no water changes + carx + trace elements + magnesium dosing + amino acid dosing
if you are relying on AFR as your go to, i wish you the best. i do not believe in one product that gives your tank all it needs.
in the end, carx with trace element dosing is the end game in this hobby. if you are at the level which @derek_SR is at, its the only way. kalk can only go so far and has its limit on how much it can help before demand takes over.
Alexander1312
Supporting Member
Sounds complicated, but I am not against CARX, in case you misunderstood. Also, I do not believe CARX is the endgame, as coral farms do not always run CARX. And for the record, I am not using either AFR (Tropic Marin) or R2R (same product from Fauna Marin), for several reasons, but these are good products.
RandyC
Supporting Member
Speaking of tedious chores, setting up and calibrating a CARX. Plus the upfront cost. Curious how this will go for you, since you are not known for your patience
What is an expensive 2 part solution (vs ESV)? This gave me an idea for another thread.
Some folks with <40g Kalkwasser container might feel offended
I think you need to set up a calcium reactor before you keep complaining that it's too complicated and hard to maintain. Apologies to be blunt, but you keep pushing this idea that it is hard, but you actually haven't done it to know from experience if it's painful or not. Set one up and if you still think it's a tedious chore, I'll respect that. I have four calcium reactors running at the moment and I promise you, my maintenance would be much worse with Kalk or two part if I had that set up in each of my systems.
Alexander. I ran one in 2000. It’s was a dual camber mrc with a bubble counter, then I ran a Milwaukee ph probe module. With a continuous pump.which I had to choke cuz it was ac. So yes in those days it was pretty challenging.
Now 25 years later. It’s all completely different. All computer controlled. Everything is thought out for you. It’s extremely simple and easy. If you’re a sps guy. It is the way to go. You can’t compare a reefer to wholesale shops. They run their systems differently than the home aquarium. Be careful with all these big wholesale like Chris mcleay (sp) they are kinda full of crap because their systems are mostly in and out systems. They talk about growing stuff but in reality they are chop shops. They are not the true aquarist.
Sorry. Thought about this also. Stability is key. A carx is basically micro dosing 24/7 , 365 days forever. You can’t even really do that with 2 part. It’s just dumping. Granted you can say. Well I’m breaking it up. But how much are you really breaking it up. Or bolus method ? All these are done back in the day.
Old is new again. Carx is a main staple of old school. If you look at any successful old school reefer. They are all or 99% carx. I’m taking guys that are 15+years under their belt.
I’m not saying it’s the only way. But it’s a super solid old school way. That’s tried and true.
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Getting back to the original question, the answer is- No, or at least not just calcium hydroxide (aka kalkwasser) for a SPS dominant tank. CaOH2 can be fantastic for a baseline level of easy Ca and alk supplementation with pH stabilization, up to the level of evaporation. Once you hit that level (you will if you have SPS), you’ll need to supplement with another method, in my case 3-part. But you could supplement with basic 2-part, All For Reef, Calcium reactor, etc. AFR and CR both mildly lower pH, so kalkwasser is a nice adjunct for them to balance out the pH.
Or when you get to the evaporation limit, you can just trim back the overgrown SPS and add more LPS and softies, which is also a reasonable approach.
I don’t recommend it personally, but if one wanted to add dry CaOH2, you could probably do so with a Plank. You would need a mixing chamber in your sump so that you have some level of confidence that it is mixed in before getting out into your display. It does dissolve quickly, just not to a high concentration, so this should be doable. This way you would not be limited by evaporation, and wouldn’t have to have a kalk reactor or large still container for it. I have not tried it myself, so it would be for someone looking for a challenge.
I personally am fine being limited to the evaporation amount, because I don’t want to overdo the pH effects of CaOH2.
Interesting idea.. plank does come with a mixing tube -issue that plank rotates at specific rate per minute that can’t be adjusted. Not sure if it needs 24/7 dosing?
I could see how the CARX on a tank that size might pay off in about 3 years - I use 1 1600 mg can of AFR for the year currently for my 65 gal system. But if I was running a 180 and my dosage was 2x my current usage -it would add up fast -$420 a year where I think the buy in for the reactor, CO2 doser, and a peristaltic pump would be $1100 not including media..
I've been very happy with the sodium hydroxide solution I am using for my alk. Definitely will be utilizing that as my primarily alk supplement as I begin my transition away from kalk. That does mean I need to dose calcium. So my plan is to utilize the hybrid balling method. Calcium chloride, sodium hydroxide, balling part c, and traces mixed in. I can mix large quantities for relatively cheap and control it all from dosers. My issue is multiple tanks requiring more dosers. But for smaller tanks, I have been happy with AFR as it is plenty. AFR mixed with sodium hydroxide for extra alk has also worked. But long term, I've decided on the hybrid balling method for more control.