All-for-reef vs 2 part vs Kalk?

[JVU]

Do you think esv bionic 2 part tops all for reef? It was the first one I bought only used it once till I was told all for reef was easier just one thing to pour in.

Is there a easy way to know how much of each part to use without testing every day? Also do you have to test multiple times days in a row to make adjustments in how much esv you need to dose? Also is this possible to be done with a dosing pump without risking nuking the tank?

Sorry if what i'm asking is confusing. My questions is based on my concern of not having a auto tester and not testing daily. Is that something that's needed for saftey with the use of these multiple part solutions?
(I'm fairly sure most of the guys here who's tanks I follow have some type of auto testing/ auto dosing set up.)

I also notice you mentioned PH caused you issues with using afr in a post above is that something we should test for like calc alk and mag?

ESV bionic is a good 2-part, there are others. They all work similarly in that you dose the same amount of each (or at least fixed ratios) based on your keeping your Alkalinity at target. You have to test Alk more frequently as you dial it in, then not as much. You don’t need to test for everything frequently. In this respect, it’s basically the same as All For Reef where you also need to test alk as you are dialing in the dose, main difference being that there’s no biological conversion so the levels change right away and are more consistent.

Most of the 2-parts use carbonate or a mix of bicarbonate and carbonate. So instead of having the pH lowered like in AFR, they will raise the pH a little. Not nearly as much as with Kalk, but noticeable.

As far as safety goes, I consider 2-part dosing the safest and least likely to cause catastrophe among the dosing options. Opinions may vary.

 

[Invictus]

Wow, I was thinking my 7ml daily was a lot. I was considering trying to dose it in a dosing pump, I'm definitely gonna ditch that Idea seeing it causes issues for you with clogging tubing.

I dose about 10ml/day and clean it off about once a week. Hasn’t been an issue.

 

[richiev]

I use AFR combined with something else. The something else in my display is 2 part. The something else in my frag tank is Kalk. If I had room and time to set it up, I'd go Kalk+AFR on my display too.

I like AFR adding all the things, and Kalk doing the pH boost.

Regarding the line plugging, I haven't had it plug, but do tend to get that. I wonder if you mixed AFR at half strength (double water) and ran it double the time if it'd help reduce that. My logic being there'd be more time for it to dissolve while pumping and each left over droplet would have less minerals.

 

[MichaelB]

I use AFR combined with something else. The something else in my display is 2 part. The something else in my frag tank is Kalk. If I had room and time to set it up, I'd go Kalk+AFR on my display too.

I like AFR adding all the things, and Kalk doing the pH boost.

Regarding the line plugging, I haven't had it plug, but do tend to get that. I wonder if you mixed AFR at half strength (double water) and ran it double the time if it'd help reduce that. My logic being there'd be more time for it to dissolve while pumping and each left over droplet would have less minerals.

I read about kalk and seen many videos seems like a more to it than just pouring it in hand dosing. I saw alot if people had stirers for it or added it to ato water. I also seen some people nuking theie tanks with it as well. With my limited knowledge it would make me nervous to try it in my main tank. I kinda get the impression it's been the standard for many many year. Before all the newer options. I may try it one day just a bit nervous of screwing stuff up lol. so trying I hesitate with new things until I feel like i'm confident in understanding the logics of them.

 

[Alexander1312]

For major, minor, and trace element management, I put Balling light from Fauna Marin into the hat, combined with Captiv8 products for further refinement (if needed).

I am surprised folks can run tanks successfully long-term with all-in-one products such as All for Reef or Ready for Reef (the competing Fauna Marin product), but it is all about the experience, I guess. I found it harder, and potentially more expensive (except for the AFR powder version, but still) to use these seemingly easier products to achieve the level of precision specifically for major elements such has Alk and CA (and MAG).

Balling light is a three-part solution where major, minor, and trace elements are added in a very simple way to Alk and CA solutions separately to keep them in balance. This gives more control over them than vs e.g. ESV in my opinion where they are pre-added. Both Fauna M and ESV keep these formulas in secret, and both seem to constantly update them, which makes them very similar in this aspect. If I did not know about Balling light, I would probably use ESV.

I thought I put out my personal comparison between the following dosing options for further discussion on pros and cons:

• All in one solutions: All for reef / ready for reef.
• Two or three part solutions: ESV, Balling, Balling light, ATI etc.
• Kalkwasser: typically non-branded
• Individual: e.g., Captiv8, others

Cost: I like the cost-benefit aspect of Balling light compared to ESV, as it should run cheaper in the end once dialed in. However, you should (but do not have to) run ICP in the beginning to maximize the benefits which will add to the cost early on, and gets into the whole ICP value etc discussion. Kalkwasser is still the cheapest option for Alk and CA, but you would still need another product for magnesium (potentially only water change), and minor and trace elements (if not only rely on water change). Captiv8 products are a great supplement for Kalkwasser. Their ISOL MT is super cheap but misses (intentionally) certain elements such e.g. Strontium and Flouride. Still the cheapest option is to run Kalkwasser with Captiv8 (or just water change).

Level of precision: The Captiv8 products combined with ICP and their master dosing calculator which Chris Woods completes for you after receiving the ICP results is in my opinion the most effective and precise way to dial in elements (unless the ICP is too far off, but well, everything is off to some extent anyway). There is also a cost savings aspect if you were to truly only rely on Captiv8 products, but this is being offset by the need to run ICP regularly. Balling light is less precise than a Captiv8 focused approach unless used with ICP and supplemented further. But it does give a nice baseline if Alk and CA is measured correctly manually, and if you consider Fauna Marin’s target value for elements appropriate. It is important to note that Captiv8 focuses on seawater parameters while Fauna Marin (and others) use their own experience (from e,g, Coral Farms in Germany and UK) and deviate on some/several target values from seawater.

Easy of use: All in one are winning this clearly which is why they are so popular. To only need one dosing head or to be able to manually dose easily is great. Balling light needs up to three dosers, but I believe you only need two and only manually dose magnesium if needed. Kalk only needs one doser too, but I added another doser for the Captiv8 master dosing solution when I used Kalk previously. But you can also just add their ISOL MT manually daily with a drop or more. ESV would need two dosers and I did feel this product is more concentrated and feels less clean when kept in a vessel than e.g. Captiv8 products or Balling light.

Risk of failure: Kalkwasser was used in the 80s in Germany until folks seemed to have issues with it longer term while having good results short term. This resulted in the precipitation concern theory of Kalkwasser, when not used in a Kalkreactor, and this led to the development of the original alternative Balling dosing method (by Hans Werner Balling, still a current Tropic Marin employee based in Germany) in the 1990s. From what I know, Claude Schumacher, CEO Fauna Marin, agreed with the Balling method in principle but thought there was a better way/customer friendly way to use the Balling method and developed Balling light approx. 20 years ago. This at the time led to similar backlash as his current claims around the BOLUS method, but he seems to currently lead market share in Europe on element management systems with balling light. I do not consider any of the current approaches risky in itself (short term at least), but the Captiv8 approach requires more ‘thinking’ in my opinion, and therefore a higher risk of incorrrect dosing if miscalculated. Two part/ESV seems easy to dose if Alk and CA is measured correctly, and the same applies to Balling light. Regarding All For Reef, I feel this seems the hardest to get right but maybe also hard to get fundementally wrong.

PH boost: I do not believe any of them provide a meaningful PH boost, while some boost PH more than others. Kalk pushes PH up and then it goes down a lot when not dosed anymore so dosing this at night appears to be most appropriate to keep PH relatively stable. In my case, CO2 impacted PH much (!) more than Kalk could ever do, and using a CO2 scrubber has been the best investment for this reason for me, without the need (and taking a risk on) for Kalkwasser. Balling light claims to boost PH in a natural way if applied in a BOLUS type all at once alkalinity method. Similar when Balling light was introduced 20 years ago, there has been a lot of controversy in favor of the traditional thinking of continous alkalinity dosing. It might turn out to be next vibrant disaster, or the go to choice for future element dosing. We will see. I have been using the BOLUS approach for a few weeks now and did not see a difference when used in connection with a CO2 scrubber, see chart below. Still, I am quite happy with my PH chart (FYI: the dip happens at 9 am every morning after alk is dosed in full, time is off due to time difference from my current location). However, the idea behind BOLUS is to not need aritifical PH boosting methods such as Kalk of CO2 scrubber, so I will try to unhook the CO2 scrubber in the next few weeks and see if this chart can stay relatively similar.

 

[ReyDeFarts]

Is it possible to point your auto top off at the end of your AFR dosing line so it could potentially clean off the crystal buildup for you?

This is exactly what I do for my kalk line. My ATO line is just above the kalk line. So every time it goes off, it essentially rinses the end of the kalk line for me. Also, the fresh water "grabs" the little bit of kalk solution that stays on the end of the line and pulls it out. I haven't had it get plugged up once since I start using kalk. I'm currently only dosing kalk btw. I'm still too ignorant on all the other stuff and if I even need it. So far, kalk has been a success for me.

 

[L/B Block]

I dose about 10ml/day and clean it off about once a week. Hasn’t been an issue.

I dose ~20 a day and the same. One thing I do check though is i will dose 4-5 ml in a graduated cylinder about once a month to see it’s still calibrated.

 

[ReyDeFarts]

For major, minor and trace element management, I put Balling light from Fauna Marin into the hat, in combination with Captiv8 products for further refinement (if needed).

I am suprised folks are able to run tanks successfully long term with all in one products such as All for Reef or Ready for Reef (the competing Fauna Marin product), but it is all about experience I guess. I found it harder, and potentially more expensive (except for the AFR powder version, but still) to use these seemingly easier products to achieve the level of precision specifically for major elements such has Alk and CA (and MAG).

Balling light is a three-part solution where major, minor, and trace elements are added in a very simple way to Alk and CA solutions separately to keep them in balance. This gives more control over them than vs e.g. ESV in my opinion where they are pre-added. Both Fauna M and ESV keep these formulas in secret, and both seem to constantly update them, which makes them very similar in this aspect. If I did not know about Balling light, I would probably use ESV.

I thought I put out my personal comparison between the following dosing options for further discussion on pros and cons:

• All in one solutions: All for reef / ready for reef.
• Two or three part solutions: ESV, Balling, Balling light, ATI etc.
• Kalkwasser: typically non-branded
• Individual: e.g., Captiv8, others

Cost: I like the cost-benefit aspect of Balling light compared to ESV, as it should run cheaper in the end once dialed in. However, you should (but do not have to) run ICP in the beginning to maximize the benefits which will add to the cost early on, and gets into the whole ICP value etc discussion. Kalkwasser is still the cheapest option for Alk and CA, but you would still need another product for magnesium (potentially only water change), and minor and trace elements (if not only rely on water change). Captiv8 products are a great supplement for Kalkwasser. Their ISOL MT is super cheap but misses (intentionally) certain elements such e.g. Strontium and Flouride. Still the cheapest option is to run Kalkwasser with Captiv8 (or just water change).

Level of precision: The Captiv8 products combined with ICP and their master dosing calculator which Chris Woods completes for you after receiving the ICP results is in my opinion the most effective and precise way to dial in elements (unless the ICP is too far off, but well, everything is off to some extent anyway). There is also a cost savings aspect if you were to truly only rely on Captiv8 products, but this is being offset by the need to run ICP regularly. Balling light is less precise than a Captiv8 focused approach unless used with ICP and supplemented further. But it does give a nice baseline if Alk and CA is measured correctly manually, and if you consider Fauna Marin’s target value for elements appropriate. It is important to note that Captiv8 focuses on seawater parameters while Fauna Marin (and others) use their own experience (from e,g, Coral Farms in Germany and UK) and deviate on some/several target values from seawater.

Easy of use: All in one are winning this clearly which is why they are so popular. To only need one dosing head or to be able to manually dose easily is great. Balling light needs up to three dosers, but I believe you only need two and only manually dose magnesium if needed. Kalk only needs one doser too, but I added another doser for the Captiv8 master dosing solution when I used Kalk previously. But you can also just add their ISOL MT manually daily with a drop or more. ESV would need two dosers and I did feel this product is more concentrated and feels less clean when kept in a vessel than e.g. Captiv8 products or Balling light.

Risk of failure: Kalkwasser was used in the 80s in Germany until folks seemed to have issues with it longer term while having good results short term. This resulted in the precipitation concern theory of Kalkwasser, when not used in a Kalkreactor, and this led to the development of the original alternative Balling dosing method (by Hans Werner Balling, still a current Tropic Marin employee based in Germany) in the 1990s. From what I know, Claude Schumacher, CEO Fauna Marin, agreed with the Balling method in principle but thought there was a better way/customer friendly way to use the Balling method and developed Balling light approx. 20 years ago. This at the time led to similar backlash as his current claims around the BOLUS method, but he seems to currently lead market share in Europe on element management systems with balling light. I do not consider any of the current approaches risky in itself (short term at least), but the Captiv8 approach requires more ‘thinking’ in my opinion, and therefore a higher risk of incorrrect dosing if miscalculated. Two part/ESV seems easy to dose if Alk and CA is measured correctly, and the same applies to Balling light. Regarding All For Reef, I feel this seems the hardest to get right but maybe also hard to get fundementally wrong.

PH boost: I do not believe any of them provide a meaningful PH boost, while some boost PH more than others. Kalk pushes PH up and then it goes down a lot when not dosed anymore so dosing this at night appears to be most appropriate to keep PH relatively stable. In my case, CO2 impacted PH much (!) more than Kalk could ever do, and using a CO2 scrubber has been the best investment for this reason for me, without the need (and taking a risk on) for Kalkwasser. Balling light claims to boost PH in a natural way if applied in a BOLUS type all at once alkalinity method. Similar when Balling light was introduced 20 years ago, there has been a lot of controversy in favor of the traditional thinking of continous alkalinity dosing. It might turn out to be next vibrant disaster, or the go to choice for future element dosing. We will see. I have been using the BOLUS approach for a few weeks now and did not see a difference when used in connection with a CO2 scrubber, see chart below. Still, I am quite happy with my PH chart (FYI: the dip happens at 9 am every morning after alk is dosed in full, time is off due to time difference from my current location). However, the idea behind BOLUS is to not need aritifical PH boosting methods such as Kalk of CO2 scrubber, so I will try to unhook the CO2 scrubber in the next few weeks and see if this chart can stay relatively similar.

View attachment 57554

A mountain of knowledge to unpack! Thanks for all of it.

Regarding All For Reef, I feel this seems the hardest to get right but maybe also hard to get fundementally wrong.

This statement is what I have been hung up on with the all-in-one style of dosing. Everything I read is that our tanks are unique and not every one is the same. Then we go and dose them like they all have the same deficiencies. Although I understand that AFR gives a tank a big buffer of "stuff" to utilize and your tank will use what it needs. Making me believe there will undoubtedly be an abundance of something that isn't getting used. Are we compounding that abundance over time the more we dose with it? I've actually been thinking of trying the AFR because it's easy. But reluctant because I'm not sure I actually need it.

With all that said, I have been dosing a weekly trace elements solution but I have zero clue how useful it actually is. I got a big bottle of the Fluval Trace Elements given to me, so I figured I'd use it.

 

[Alexander1312]

A mountain of knowledge to unpack! Thanks for all of it.



This statement is what I have been hung up on with the all-in-one style of dosing. Everything I read is that our tanks are unique and not every one is the same. Then we go and dose them like they all have the same deficiencies. Although I understand that AFR gives a tank a big buffer of "stuff" to utilize and your tank will use what it needs. Making me believe there will undoubtedly be an abundance of something that isn't getting used. Are we compounding that abundance over time the more we dose with it? I've actually been thinking of trying the AFR because it's easy. But reluctant because I'm not sure I actually need it.

With all that said, I have been dosing a weekly trace elements solution but I have zero clue how useful it actually is. I got a big bottle of the Fluval Trace Elements given to me, so I figured I'd use it.

I would not use an all in one, but it all depends. If the Fluval is only traces, not major elements, I would probably dose less than the minimal dose just to be safe. The ISOL MT from captiv8 is so cheap and you only need a drop or less, I would move to this at the next opportunity. Kenny sells this. If you are looking for Alk and CA, then thats a longer story, see above.

 

[MichaelB]

A mountain of knowledge to unpack! Thanks for all of it.



This statement is what I have been hung up on with the all-in-one style of dosing. Everything I read is that our tanks are unique and not every one is the same. Then we go and dose them like they all have the same deficiencies. Although I understand that AFR gives a tank a big buffer of "stuff" to utilize and your tank will use what it needs. Making me believe there will undoubtedly be an abundance of something that isn't getting used. Are we compounding that abundance over time the more we dose with it? I've actually been thinking of trying the AFR because it's easy. But reluctant because I'm not sure I actually need it.

With all that said, I have been dosing a weekly trace elements solution but I have zero clue how useful it actually is. I got a big bottle of the Fluval Trace Elements given to me, so I figured I'd use it.

This is much like the way I feel, it’s a mountain of information to try to absorb. Yet I'm greatful for everyone willing to share their knowledge and experiences. I do watch tons of vidoes and do my own research which only makes the mountain that much taller. This thread has been extremely informative on the subject in general. I have lots to consider, research, and hopefully decide on.

 

[ReyDeFarts]

I would not use an all in one, but it all depends. If the Fluval is only traces, not major elements, I would probably dose less than the minimal dose just to be safe. The ISOL MT from captiv8 is so cheap and you only need a drop or less, I would move to this at the next opportunity. Kenny sells this. If you are looking for Alk and CA, then thats a longer story, see above.

I will certainly look into it. It is only trace elements and quite diluted from what I have been able to compare it to. It's definitely geared toward new reefers.

Next time I head up to HT, I'll talk to Kenny to see how I can incorporate ISOL MT since I'm running Kalk. I started using kalk after having a lengthy discussion with @under_water_ninja and seeing his success with it.

I'm actually looking at increasing my kalk dosage since I haven't quite dialed in the evaporation rate. My issue is space in my stand for another large reservoir.

I remember reading your concerns about kalk, but with so many folks still swearing by it, I decided to keep using it.

 

[JVU]

I read about kalk and seen many videos seems like a more to it than just pouring it in hand dosing. I saw alot if people had stirers for it or added it to ato water. I also seen some people nuking theie tanks with it as well. With my limited knowledge it would make me nervous to try it in my main tank. I kinda get the impression it's been the standard for many many year. Before all the newer options. I may try it one day just a bit nervous of screwing stuff up lol. so trying I hesitate with new things until I feel like i'm confident in understanding the logics of them.

You cannot manually dose calcium hydroxide (kalk) safely. It needs to be dosed in small amounts throughout the night (or night and day). This can be with a doser (preferred) or in ATO water (used to be done a lot but is riskier). Adding a bolus of it manually spikes the pH too high. I’m sure you can find someone on the internet to disagree with this, but they are probably also someone with a lot of experience with kalk and a very unique situation/perspective. For everyone else, it needs a reliable doser.

 

[MichaelB]

You cannot manually dose calcium hydroxide (kalk) safely. It needs to be dosed in small amounts throughout the night (or night and day). This can be with an doser (preferred) or in ATO water (used to be done a lot but is riskier). Adding a bolus of it manually spikes the pH too high. I’m sure you can find someone on the internet to disagree with this, but they are probably also someone with a lot of experience with kalk and a very unique situation/perspective. For everyone else, it needs a reliable doser.

Thanks, that the same Generalization I gathered after all the videos and articles. 20 people saying one thing and there is always that one guy saying something on the oppsite end. Reminding me of one guy on utube who said he hasn't done A water change in five years.

 

[H2OPlayar]

Reminding me of one guy on utube who said he hasn't done A water change in five years.

That's not as crazy as it seems these days. I probably won't do any meaningful water changes on my big system for a while, or ever. There is a big "but" in that I am root cause solving for every reason you would change water in this system.

 

[richiev]

I read about kalk and seen many videos seems like a more to it than just pouring it in hand dosing. I saw alot if people had stirers for it or added it to ato water. I also seen some people nuking theie tanks with it as well. With my limited knowledge it would make me nervous to try it in my main tank. I kinda get the impression it's been the standard for many many year. Before all the newer options. I may try it one day just a bit nervous of screwing stuff up lol. so trying I hesitate with new things until I feel like i'm confident in understanding the logics of them.

As long as you dose Kalk with a doser it's not complicated. The way people go wrong is dosing it in your ATO. You then have no control over how much goes in, both due to changing evaporation rates, and in case you do a water change with too little water or whatever.

However that same thing can happen with anything people dose that way, including AFR or even Alk in top off.

The issue with dosing it is you need lots of small doses, which many cheap dosers can't do.

 

[MichaelB]

As long as you dose Kalk with a doser it's not complicated. The way people go wrong is dosing it in your ATO. You then have no control over how much goes in, both due to changing evaporation rates, and in case you do a water change with too little water or whatever.

However that same thing can happen with anything people dose that way, including AFR or even Alk in top off.

The issue with dosing it is you need lots of small doses, which many cheap dosers can't do.

This is the doser I have. I've never used it yet. Any thoughts on this one ? I'm not sure if it's good, decent, or just sucks and I should be look for something else. I picked it up a few months back for $50 bucks from someone local. This of course I plan for the 65 gallon tank when dosing is needed in it later on.

 

[richiev]

This is the doser I have. I've never used it yet. Any thoughts on this one ? I'm not sure if it's good, decent, or just sucks and I should be look for something else. I picked it up a few months back for $50 bucks from someone local. This of course I plan for the 65 gallon tank when dosing is needed in it later on.

Pretty much all these style of dosers are the same IMO. I am pretty sure all the pumps are Kamoer. The motors will be whatever cheap thing the company finds.

The main difference is the control units. Some are easier to use, some are Wi-Fi. If it works it's fine. May break at some point.

There are ones that are different, more rollers (slightly more accurate), maybe a stepper motor versus a DC motor (quieter, more accurate).

However for Kalk the most important and biggest difference is either the ability to do a ton of small doses, or the ability to dose really slowly for a long time. That's why some people end up using very expensive, big, pumps OR go the ATO route OR a controller.

I personally have a DIY setup involving a reef-pi. Some day I have plans to build a stand alone Wi-Fi doser, but I never got that far. You can also potentially do it with a smart plug and a timer setup.

 

[Srt4eric]

This is the doser I have. I've never used it yet. Any thoughts on this one ? I'm not sure if it's good, decent, or just sucks and I should be look for something else. I picked it up a few months back for $50 bucks from someone local. This of course I plan for the 65 gallon tank when dosing is needed in it later on.

This is the doser I used on my garage system.

 

[L/B Block]

I use AFR -and once dialed in-pretty reliable and does keep alk/calcium/mg in check. If you accidentally overdose one day -doesn’t send your alk and PH spiking. It does clog the end of the port but I simply clean it once a week.

On the flip side-it is the more expensive equivalent of carbo calcium without the trace elements- to other’s points about everyone’s tanks is unique- the trace elements are not sufficient for my tank and I am supplementing all the same. Ugh. So probably after this batch I have a container of carbo calcium and will revert back to that (it is that much cheaper) -haven’t decided. The large container of AFR lasts me about a year on a 65 gal tank -so not bad.

 

[Darkxerox]

I use AFR -and once dialed in-pretty reliable and does keep alk/calcium/mg in check. If you accidentally overdose one day -doesn’t send your alk and PH spiking. It does clog the end of the port but I simply clean it once a week.

On the flip side-it is the more expensive equivalent of carbo calcium without the trace elements- to other’s points about everyone’s tanks is unique- the trace elements are not sufficient for my tank and I am supplementing all the same. Ugh. So probably after this batch I have a container of carbo calcium and will revert back to that (it is that much cheaper) -haven’t decided. The large container of AFR lasts me about a year on a 65 gal tank -so not bad.

Yeah the AFR safety factor is something to consider. Listen about @Matt_Wandell 's overdose on Reef Beef around 11:15