An ethics question

[Thales]

Let me pose a different but smilar question to you and everyone else Rich (call it semi devils advocate)... Who is to say that said LFS owner or employee is even qualified to make the decision of who is or isn't qualified to make a purchase? Now I know there are exceptions to so don't start blasting out a few specific examples, but how much training does the typical LFS employee have that would even be relevant in this case and/or can you really expect that kind of knowledge from employees who probably don't make that much more then minimum wage? or better yet, who polices the LFS to ensure that they should even be able to sell livestock in the first place?

Pie in the sky it is a great idea don't get me wrong. I would love to see less waste an more personal responsibility in this hobby. The problem with rules or regs on things like this is that the people that get hurt by them are usually the unintended receipients and the people who are the real dirtbags in the industry figure out another way to rape and pillage.

Couldn't that be said about any business? What makes you qualified to do my taxes? A degree from a college? Some of the dumbnest LFS employees I worked with were... wait for it... marine biologists. Schooling did not do a damn thing for them but to your average customer, the M.B. is the "qualified one" :lol:

FWIW hobbyists are just as much to blame for "rape and pillage" by supporting the very people they complain about. Nearly everyone is a hypocrite when it comes to this, myself included.

A degree in MB has nothing to do with working in a LFS or keeping animals alive long term. A degree in MB qualifies someone to study marine animals/system, not keep them alive. A CPA however, has very specific training to do al the things a CPA does and thats what people go to CPA's for. A more accurate analogy would be going to an economist and expecting them to be able to do your taxes. There is absolutely no schooling or certification for working inan LFS.

You bet we are all to blame for the 'rape and pillage'.

 

[Thales]

I agree with what Rich says in that a lot of problems could be solved if the animals were costly enough to make someone think twice before buying a certain animal.

I suggest working in a LFS.. your idea above will turn 180 degrees very quickly. Money doesn't make you care. It may sting to those with out it, but you forget this is luxury hobby and there are some mega rich people in it and an awful lot of very well off.... many of them don't care.

Sure. Most of the time in LFS the people with money were the ones that listened when when we gave them 'stalling' advice. The lower income people that were getting into the hobby on a lark and on the cheap did not and went across the street to the other LFS.

 

[muhli]

What about feeder fishes?

 

[GreshamH]

In your world that happened, socal and norcal are very different, especially when comparing Santa Cruz to any place socal. We didnt have "your ghetto lfs" really. Our worst store knew their place and kept to the basics only. At the time Peter, Pete, Mrs Cali and my employers were the only game besides Petsmart. Petsmart referrals were one of our biggest sources of customers. At the time the had no manager so they had to have the Seaside manager do MONTHLY service on the systems. Most the time they were basically fishless. You wanted marine livestock you went to us or you drove an hour. One thing Santa Cruz people hate to do is drive one of the worst highways in the US so yah, we're a bubble. Don't try to apply it now, there are no good lfs around here. We put 3 out of business just prior to killing the aquatic section.


So you are telling me if a marine biologist was working in a lfs that people would not awesume that person is far more qualified then a HS dropout or any none MB employee? Really? Not been the case at any store I have been where that situation occured. Dr Lee is a perfect example.

 

[bmhair03]

. Caulerpa taxifoliaer is another example of the industry not doing whats right,in the beginning .

How so? The "industry" had no real hand in the original cultivation of the particular cold hardy strain, it was hobbyists and public aquariums. "Industry" had real no part in it getting here, again, hobbyists and public aquariums. It was not something even on the radar of the "industry" back then... that came very much later and with wild caularpa (which to this days still remains the bulk of what is sold). Our neighbor to the south has several native calurapa strains don't forget.

Sorry was using Industry vaguely should have said Hobbyists, was including me the hobbyist in the Industry . I didn't mean to single any one segment out. I agree with your
description.

 

[Coral reefer]

I got denied trying to buy trojan magnums. Dude could tell they were too big...Errr, I mean that happened to my friend!

 

[Thales]

So you are telling me if a marine biologist was working in a lfs that people would not awesume that person is far more qualified then a HS dropout or any none MB employee? Really? Not been the case at any store I have been where that situation occured. Dr Lee is a perfect example.

Who me? I don't think I have said anything like that. And you know what I think about Bao using 'Dr'!

 

[seminolecpa]

Let me pose a different but smilar question to you and everyone else Rich (call it semi devils advocate)... Who is to say that said LFS owner or employee is even qualified to make the decision of who is or isn't qualified to make a purchase? Now I know there are exceptions to so don't start blasting out a few specific examples, but how much training does the typical LFS employee have that would even be relevant in this case and/or can you really expect that kind of knowledge from employees who probably don't make that much more then minimum wage? or better yet, who polices the LFS to ensure that they should even be able to sell livestock in the first place?

Pie in the sky it is a great idea don't get me wrong. I would love to see less waste an more personal responsibility in this hobby. The problem with rules or regs on things like this is that the people that get hurt by them are usually the unintended receipients and the people who are the real dirtbags in the industry figure out another way to rape and pillage.

Couldn't that be said about any business? What makes you qualified to do my taxes? A degree from a college? Some of the dumbnest LFS employees I worked with were... wait for it... marine biologists. Schooling did not do a damn thing for them but to your average customer, the M.B. is the "qualified one" :lol:

FWIW hobbyists are just as much to blame for "rape and pillage" by supporting the very people they complain about. Nearly everyone is a hypocrite when it comes to this, myself included.

Think Rich nailed it on the head.

Though I understand what you are trying to analogize, you are comparing apples and oranges. A CPA or even an enrolled agent is required to become either certified with the IRS or their local state board of accountancy before they are technically allowed to do your taxes as a paid preparer. Can't speak specifically to enrolled agents, but CPA's typically also have to be insured (if they practice publically) and are required to be fingerprinted, and renew their liscense (on average) every 2 years with a significant amount of continued professional education. Big difference then the average joe schmo with an accounting degree, as their accreditation relates specifically to the area as opposed to just a piece of paper from a college or university. Where as a marine biologists degree (generally) can focus on a very broad area.

FWIW I actually have several things that make me "qualified" to do your taxes, including to name specifically, a college degree, a masters in taxation, a CPA license, bi-annual renewal and continued professional education requirements (specifically in taxation), registration with the IRS, and about 15 years of experience. Think I am more then qualified

I think you missed what I was trying to get across in my other point, which was : many times rules that are put in place to target a specific area, though well intentioned, will really do nothing to hit their intended targets and it is the people that get hit in the cross fire that actually get hurt. Sure it will weed out some of the "bad" people, but the really bad people that are the targets will find other ways around the rules to be just as bad (if not worse). The other problem is that rules morph over time (again to try to catch the cheaters) and become a shell of what their original intended purpose was. Want a example? Take a look at the voluminous IRS code, yet the uber rich still find loophole after loophole to avoid paying taxes. Or for a more specific example, google the history of the alternative minimum tax (AMT) enacted in the tax reform of 1969 [cliff notes it was enacted to hit 155 households that were not paying taxes] and tell me if the some 27 million people today that are affected by it feel they were the intended targets.