Jestersix

Bangai Cardinal import ban -- why wouldn't this be good?

R

richiev

Supporting Member
BARcard
Reading https://www.aol.com/us-looks-ban-imports-exports-164909160.html I'm confused. If Bangai Cardinals are endangered, why can anyone import them? That seems very weird/wrong. I hadn't heard that before.

Second, given Bangai Cardinals are pretty easy to breed (not guppy levels, but people breed them at home even), why aren't all these captive bred?

Generally, if both those things are true, why shouldn't this be completely banned? Also are there other common kept fish that should be
 
I have been under the impression for years that there has always been a ban on importing them because they are extinct in most of their natural territories. I thought we only saw captive-bred Bangai's.
 
Bruce Spiegelman said:
I have been under the impression for years that there has always been a ban on importing them because they are extinct in most of their natural territories. I thought we only saw captive-bred Bangai's.
Click to expand...
Nope, wilds still imported. They also exist outside their natural territories... collectors have started them elsewhere to make collections easier.

BC's suck at shipping, they experience high DOA/DAA. Almost all cardinals fall into this category.

They should be banned, should have been banned years ago, like a decade ago.
 
Darkxerox said:
Good article on this:

www.reef2rainforest.com

Are Banggai Cardinals Depleted in the Wild? - CORAL Magazine

A new proposed draft rule to prevent the US import and export of the Banggai Cardinal (Pterapogon kauderni) under the Endangered Species Act, would do vastly more harm than good. The need for these proposed changes is based on a false premise. Meanwhile, these rules would vastly complicate the...
www.reef2rainforest.com www.reef2rainforest.com
Click to expand...

I don't buy the arguments in there. Not picking on you for posting. I find the anti-ban articles I've seen seen to have similar characteristics.

> "One time I went snorkeling in Indonesia and saw a bunch! That proves they're not rare!"

I look forward to future arguments saying global warming doesn't exist because their house was cold last winter.

> Other Wild Population
This entire section is basically saying "thanks to the aquarium trade we now have introduced a non-native, invasive species to a bunch of locations so we can farm them!". Let's ... not do that?

> Breeding Programs Drive The Trade
> There's breeding in Thailand

Would be great to allow the bred ones, but so? People can breed them in the US too, and would be more incentivized to do so. We also could make an agreement with Thailand and a certification program.

Neither of those really relate to of there's a problem that needs to be fixed or not though.

> Are Banggai Cardinals Really Threatened?
> The Banggai Cardinalfish is already protected locally, and the collection of wild specimens is now very complicated. Some difficult-to-get collection and shipping permits are required to trade these species from their original location. That should be enough. Supporting and trusting the proper implementation of the local regulation should be embraced

Doesn't have any supporting evidence. Also this is the type of thing where local decisions are inherently in conflict with preservation. Everyone thinks preservation is important, but everyone thinks _their_ situation is special because they have a house/boat/kids they need to account for. Also by empirical evidence, if someone's doing a bad job at something the solution is rarely tell them "you're in charge, do a good job". Oversight is valuable if only for training.

> A Terrible Solution for the Wrong Problem!
> Urchins are a big problem!

Sure, but we can fix multiple things at once. There's people starving across the world, drug problems are widespread, there's a war in Ukraine, all of which are really important, but that doesn't mean we also can't save ornamental fish.
 
Yeah I only really agree with wild caught here if they're deemed invasive outside of an original area (see lionfish in the Caribbean etc.). Granted they're not top end predators to the same effect, but they clearly have been found where they shouldn't be.

They're like trochus snails in our tanks (you find babies in your sump that you didn't even know about). Definitely one of the easiest fish to breed in captivity. We can make demands locally to have stores only carry captive bred, but unless they change laws locally, they still will hit the international market.
 
richiev said:
I don't buy the arguments in there. Not picking on you for posting. I find the anti-ban articles I've seen seen to have similar characteristics.

> "One time I went snorkeling in Indonesia and saw a bunch! That proves they're not rare!"

I look forward to future arguments saying global warming doesn't exist because their house was cold last winter.

> Other Wild Population
This entire section is basically saying "thanks to the aquarium trade we now have introduced a non-native, invasive species to a bunch of locations so we can farm them!". Let's ... not do that?

> Breeding Programs Drive The Trade
> There's breeding in Thailand

Would be great to allow the bred ones, but so? People can breed them in the US too, and would be more incentivized to do so. We also could make an agreement with Thailand and a certification program.

Neither of those really relate to of there's a problem that needs to be fixed or not though.

> Are Banggai Cardinals Really Threatened?
> The Banggai Cardinalfish is already protected locally, and the collection of wild specimens is now very complicated. Some difficult-to-get collection and shipping permits are required to trade these species from their original location. That should be enough. Supporting and trusting the proper implementation of the local regulation should be embraced

Doesn't have any supporting evidence. Also this is the type of thing where local decisions are inherently in conflict with preservation. Everyone thinks preservation is important, but everyone thinks _their_ situation is special because they have a house/boat/kids they need to account for. Also by empirical evidence, if someone's doing a bad job at something the solution is rarely tell them "you're in charge, do a good job". Oversight is valuable if only for training.

> A Terrible Solution for the Wrong Problem!
> Urchins are a big problem!

Sure, but we can fix multiple things at once. There's people starving across the world, drug problems are widespread, there's a war in Ukraine, all of which are really important, but that doesn't mean we also can't save ornamental fish.
Click to expand...

While the US is the largest buyer of wild BC, the US stopping importing them will just shift the collections to Europe and Asia. There isn't enough to supply all countries, so the same amount will be pulled. Its a tough situation, and one I have watched for years.


"> The Banggai Cardinalfish is already protected locally, and the collection of wild specimens is now very complicated. Some difficult-to-get collection and shipping permits are required to trade these species from their original location. That should be enough. Supporting and trusting the proper implementation of the local regulation should be embraced"

Its not local regulation, its country wide. The locals had little to do with it, as is the case almost everywhere stuff like this happens. Indonesia is a hard country to do business in.

I was deeply involved with this subject years ago. You should send an email to Ret Talbot, talk to him... he is about the most informed person on the subject.
 
Coral reefer said:
@under_water_ninja should have him come talk at the shop!
Click to expand...
Ret lives in Maine now. Currently he's doing talks on his new book he co-authored. Chasing Shadows: My Life Tracking The Great White Shark

www.whitebirchbooks.com

Shark! Meet RET TALBOT, co-author of CHASING SHADOWS: My Life Tracking the Great White Shark - White Birch Books North Conway

Come talk sharks with author Ret Talbot and his new book Chasing Shadows, on Tuesday, August 15, starting at 6 p.m.
www.whitebirchbooks.com www.whitebirchbooks.com

If someone can get him out, he'd be a great speaker. HIs wife is an incredible scientific illustrator: http://www.karentalbotart.com/. She did a Tigriopus californicus illustration plate for a special run of Tigger-Feast back when I worked at Reef Nutriton. I had them both out for the last BAYMAC I put on.
 
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