got ethical husbandry?

Continuing Tank Problems. Reallly need help. (again)

I spent a lot of time on this so any help I can get would be most appreciated. I've tried to organize the post a little but I will end up rambling... please stick with it.
Pasting.....

Once Again I'm trying to trouble shoot my tank. I'll start with all the specs and
parameters and then I'll tell you the symptoms that are no longer annoying but are truly depressing.
I mean, it's definitely at the point where my mood is depressed... I owe 10k on my taxes right now
and it isn't on my mind and it really should be... My dismal reef is on my mind every day.
I think the most annoying thing is that I found a salinity issue a while ago, things looked a little
better when I cured that, but now we're back to everything sucking.


Tank 100g


Flow:

Return in Center (waveysea 140 degree sweep)
Return: 100PX-X :
# Max Flow: 1270gph
# Max Head: 13ft

One end of tank 4 inches from surface
Tunze 6080
2250 gal/h

Other end of tank ( offset from above Tunze to try to get some circulation on the flow)
(circular flow disrupted by the waveysea)
Tunze 6060
1,585 USgal./h)

Temps... 78 (seems fairly constant at this time of year)

Cup of Carbon in a phosban reactor changed monthly.

BM160 SKimmer.

Lights

2*250 PFO Hqi ballasts. 2 * 250 DE Phoenix 14k. 9 Hours photperiod. 9 1/2 inches above water.
Each pendant hangs above the wholes in the acrylic top brace. LAmps are approx month and half old
this time round.

Suppliments and salt

Reef crystals (Low Ca and Mg of late)

Water... RO/DI (Maxcap 90)

Alk and Ca via 2 part Recipe.
Alk part: Arm and Hammer (not baked).
CA part: Leslies Hardness Plus (1 Cup rather than 1.25 due to high content Ca chloride)

Mg: Randy's 2 part as needed.


Parameters today and fairly typical

Salinity (Measured with Refractometer)
1.025-1.026 (somewhere between) (Auto Top of keeps very constant)

Alk/Mg (Sailfert ) (Alk LaMotte)
Alk 3.6 meq/L or 10.8 dkH 180 ppm..... *Concern* Sometimes drops a little low to maybe 3.2
Calcium 420
Mg 1300

As far as I can tell with these horrible kits (Sailfert):
Nitrate 0
Phosphates 0

Small area of sump is full of Chaeto and some nasty looking macros that grow in parts of the cHaeto.





So What is it that is depressing me. Mainly just examples.

SPS coral no longer grows. e.g My Pocillapora (easiest sps, maybe even easiest coral of all to grow.) used to
grow like weed (I think I could see it growing) now doesn't grow.

On a couple of sps pieces, I do see a little creeping out of tissue at the base which is something I guess
But most SPS, Lose most of their color and have awful polyp extension. So if I put a coral with fairly
limited polyp extension in the tank, the polyps may disappear completely and if it's really hairy,
it will become much less hairy. Super hairy millies not very hairy anymore in my tank.


Colors slowly bleach away. My Palmers Blue Millie, is now a really nice light blue (it actually has reasonable
polyp extension and I like the color but color was much deeper). A nice big colony of Milli that was a rich yellow/brown with green tints in the hairs is now pale yellow/brown with a lot of nearly white flesh (not just the tips, this aint growth)

Even my Idaho grape is faded with no polyps.

Soft Corals: Too much Xenia (pompom) frequently give away and throw away. But at least it grows and
keeps the clowns happy.

Colt Coral keeps popping up and I keep the odd sprig but also, sell/give away/bring to swaps./>
Various Zoas. Some have also lost some color and don't seem as happy as they used to... most OK but did lose some to Pox.

LPS... Only a couple. Alien Eye Chalice... now brown and a little green, looks really sick at the
moment and showing some skeleton. gulp.

Duncan. Rarely shows its head. Did grow a little brother head but he doesn't show himself much either.
Montastrea from 07 Swap... did really well for a long time. Recently suffered set back as it suddenly seems
to have some skeleton showing.

Pavona, color a bit muted at the moment, but actually grows. Probably should be lower in tank.


PESTS:

Red Planaria, I manually extract infrequently, not at plague levels.
Red-Poofy algae... REALLY BIG ISSUE. Ruining some ZOa colony. I actually pulled my blues
out, scrubbed if off and put them back.. 3 weeks later the Blues are starting to look OK. This Algae
Really noticable since Losing yellow Tang, Tomini doesn't eat it. Neither does anything else...


Corals doing OK: One capping, monti. One monti digitata... actually has an OK bright green still
and growing. Xmas Favia.. not super colorful but growing and putting out long feeder and definitely grows a bit.


Big Clue... Coraline which is all over back and side walls has stopped growing on front of tank.. used to be huge chore.. now I miss it.

Coral feeding minimal..I put some Reef Nutrition Phyto in now and then and the fish get cyclopees so I
guess they get that. Occasional Roti-feast.

Things I think MAY be problems... Too Much Rock.. I wonder if circulation is a problem because of lack of free space.

Thanks for your help... I'll watch this closely and I'll hopefully be able to post some depressing pictures.

-Adrian

(In San Jose... feel free to come and shake your head and see what's up)
 
Adrian,

I've been having some similar problems on my prop tank. Water parameters and system specs are very similar to yours.

I've been seeing less sps polyp extension. Duncans also are kind of closed. Also have slowed coraline growth. Been getting stn/rtn on various monti and acro frags. This weekend, a Superman that I had for over a year rtn'd. Also lost a Rainbow monti, Palawenensis, Blue polyp cap, Pink polyp cap, and some other montis. Today, I lost my Orenji and a Setosa less than 24 hours :(

I'd just done a water change with RC salt last week. The low Ca/Mg one. I'm going to switch back to IO. I never had this kind of problem before on IO, and it seems that I lose corals after every water change now.
 
I have tons of rock in my tank and I'm sure not the best flow.I would look at changing salt brand? and a big water change. I use Kent's and so it seem O.K. Maybe less light for now to slow down the algae ??? Do you have a sand bed?
 
I'm leaning toward the Salt change... although it feels like a desperation move but then I guess I am kind of desperate (yeah, I know it shows). So thanks to the pair of you for feeding that paranoia :) When they sent me a replacement RC bucket I was very ticked to find the low CA/MG was true for the replacement too. Makes me a little wary of IO given they are the same folks producing it.

I do have a shallow sand bed. Not deep. Varying heights as It's been shaped by the Tunzes.

I'll have to ask Mike(sfsuphysics), if he's tried cutting back on light to fight the pink puffy algae; I know he's been fighting it.
 
About 2 years ago I had tons of hair algae and the only way I got rid of it was to purchase 1000 blue leg on ebay. Some arrived dead but the rest took care of all the algae. Just remember when there job is done trade or give most away.I didn't and only have 10-20 left :'(
 
[quote author=nash link=topic=3464.msg39414#msg39414 date=1207084396]
About 2 years ago I had tons of hair algae and the only way I got rid of it was to purchase 1000 blue leg on ebay. Some arrived dead but the rest took care of all the algae. Just remember when there job is done trade or give most away.I didn't and only have 10-20 left :'(
[/quote]

Biological controls are hit an miss, mostly miss. What's even worse is often the biological control is given credit for taking care of an issue, but its just post hoc ergo proctor hoc. Case in point, HA comes and goes without controls, but crabs often get the credit for eating it. Too many times people buy biological controls cheap and don't care all that much if they die, which impacts the attitude of the hobby poorly.
I suggest not getting any biological control unless you want to keep the animal for itself, and certainly buying in bulk seems like a poor way to treat the animals.
Manual removal of nuisance algae is the best way to go IMO.


Adrian - sorry you are having this issue. I don't think its the salt because this problem comes around every now and then. What are you using for water?
 
SALT:
I was thinking of you Rich when the salt issue came up. I've read your thoughts on Salts and the fact that there are bad batches for other manufactures as well from time to time. I think the fact that... the salt was giving bad readings, and then I get sent a new bucket (I never insisted on it, I just asked them to test two samples) AND the bucket mirrors the other bucket in all the readings.... was what has really made me think seriously about it. I may just try it, if for nothing else than things can only get better.

Biologicals:
Well I need some more fish and I will definitely lean toward another tang or a foxface... hey I like them so I may as well hope they eat the cotton candy. I don't really want any more crabs.
I think my Mex Turbo died or maybe he's shy... and I never saw him eat the pink stuff, but right now, I have no problem with a couple of big snails knocking over bleaching corals.

Water:
I have a RO/DI system from Spectrapure (maxcap 90)... got to support the sponsers.

Norm: Too caught up in my own issues to see how much crap has been happening to you. Sorry to hear about it... I know when you get back on track theer'll be corals flying in from all over the place to replace the losses.

Thanks for the input.
-Adrian
 
[quote author=stubbsz link=topic=3464.msg39435#msg39435 date=1207093040]
SALT:
I was thinking of you Rich when the salt issue came up. I've read your thoughts on Salts and the fact that there are bad batches for other manufactures as well from time to time. I think the fact that... the salt was giving bad readings, and then I get sent a new bucket (I never insisted on it, I just asked them to test two samples) AND the bucket mirrors the other bucket in all the readings.... was what has really made me think seriously about it. I may just try it, if for nothing else than things can only get better.[/quote]

I know what you mean. When my RC is gone I may go back to IO simply because they make so much more of it, so it should be more stable.

Biologicals:
Well I need some more fish and I will definitely lean toward another tang or a foxface... hey I like them so I may as well hope they eat the cotton candy. I don't really want any more crabs.
I think my Mex Turbo died or maybe he's shy... and I never saw him eat the pink stuff, but right now, I have no problem with a couple of big snails knocking over bleaching corals.

I was just on a soap box. :D

Water:
I have a RO/DI system from Spectrapure (maxcap 90)... got to support the sponsers.

Whats coming out of that? When is the last time you changed both the RO and DI? I have a sneaky suspicion my similar issues may have been related to exhausted DI resin.

Norm: Too caught up in my own issues to see how much crap has been happening to you. Sorry to hear about it... I know when you get back on track theer'll be corals flying in from all over the place to replace the losses.

Its been happening to a bunch of people. The problem is, it happens all the time to a bunch of people, so I am not sure we can peg it down without an kind of actual information.

I hope everything gets better soon!

Thanks for the input.
-Adrian
[/quote]
 
I can't get the quotes lining up...

SALT: That wasn't the point I was making but I like yours better.

Biologicals: 100g essential-Reef-ready-critter-package-cleanup-crew. Seriously though I want a new fish, I'm not killing fish.

Water: 1 on the tds meter after First DI. 0 after Second... whatever happened to the latest group buy.

it happens all the time to a bunch of people. I guess so, but I see some lovely tanks at my fav LFS's and various folks I've picked up stuff from and I sometimes thinks its just me :)

I hope everything gets better soon!

Amen to that and thanks
-Adrian
 
I was having some similiar issues, though my tank hadn't gone as far downhill. Two things have made a huge difference:

1) I change my charcoal 1x to 2x per week, and use 1/2 cup in a small filter I place in the sump, I think it's a Fluval.

2) I started dosing w/ Salifert's Trace Elements, the one for Hard Coral's & the one for Soft Corals.

3) I started dosing Potassium Iodide (ESV Brand) & chelated iron (Kent brand)

My corals sps & lps started growing again, increased in color and fluorescence. And all the purple macro that was taking over the tank, suddenly disappeared. This macro was growing over everything and was like trying to control an epidemic of grape caulaerpa. Now it's gone. I can only guess the trace elements helped the corals use up all the junk in the water.

I still use RC salt, but have to add extra Ca & alk. If RC has less Ca & Mg, maybe it has fewer trace elements too.
 
[quote author=Thales link=topic=3464.msg39432#msg39432 date=1207091442]
[quote author=nash link=topic=3464.msg39414#msg39414 date=1207084396]
About 2 years ago I had tons of hair algae and the only way I got rid of it was to purchase 1000 blue leg on ebay. Some arrived dead but the rest took care of all the algae. Just remember when there job is done trade or give most away.I didn't and only have 10-20 left :'(
[/quote]

Biological controls are hit an miss, mostly miss. What's even worse is often the biological control is given credit for taking care of an issue, but its just post hoc ergo proctor hoc. Case in point, HA comes and goes without controls, but crabs often get the credit for eating it. Too many times people buy biological controls cheap and don't care all that much if they die, which impacts the attitude of the hobby poorly.
I suggest not getting any biological control unless you want to keep the animal for itself, and certainly buying in bulk seems like a poor way to treat the animals.
Manual removal of nuisance algae is the best way to go IMO.


Adrian - sorry you are having this issue. I don't think its the salt because this problem comes around every now and then. What are you using for water?

[/quote] The only hermits I've seen that eat derbesia and bryopsis are the blue knuckle variety (striped blue and black legs )
 
Be very careful adding things you don't or can't test for. Just my experience. Way to easy to overdose.

I agree. I was doing a 10% to 20% water change each week to be on the safe side. Now I'm waiting on my MgCl from bulkreefsupply.com before I make any more wc's w/ my RC salt mix. Sure wish I hadn't bought up 3 buckets when it was on sale. ::)

stubbsz: Have you thought about adding some more circulation to the tank? I have almost as much flow as you do in my 40g tank.

Charcoal won't absorb much after one week. I have to use at least 1/2 a cup per week.

I only mentioned the trace elements because my corals seem to be using up more stuff in my water, and the nuisance algae has disappeared after I started using it.

Could the colt corals be waging chemical warfare on the rest of the tank? I only had a colony one week in my tank before all the other corals were suffering. Even frequent changes of charcoal didn't help.

Anyway, just my thoughts. I had these same problems before too.
 
Adrian are you still using Reef Crystals, you may with to change it up a little with IO and see if anything changes for the better. I am getting mixed results in the sense there are a few things that went to pot over the last year or so when I started using Reef Crystals.
 
After reading the thread on here about RC being low in Mg, I tested my tank water and found out the concentration of Mg was about 850ppm.
 
To answer a few questions in here:

I have thought about more flow but in that thread (somewhere else on these forums) the general opinion was that I was OK there. However, I have plans to go in and Move some rocks that I feel are blocking the circulation. I kind of have a gyre flow pattern but it is blocked in two places and I feel the flow would be improved by removing those blocks.

I'm still on Reef Crystals, but I just switched to a different bucket. I was hoping that Tunze Group by on salt would progress and get a few bags of that.

Re: Colt coral. I used to have PC lighting, IO salt and HALF ... yep half my tank was filled with Colt coral. The cuttings made me loads of store credit. At the same time I had a few SPS that I had to have at top 5 inches of the tank... They were growing like weeds. Now I can't grow squat except a few pieces of the colt that spring up from nowhere and Xenia. Metal Halide, RC and not so many Colts.

Here are some OLD shots to give a taste of the size of the colt weed I had.

Also, if you look at the second picture of some Xenia you will see the tip of on arm of a stag coral with green polyps... I have one tiny frag of that now and it isn't growing and you can barely see the polyps.

http://homepage.mac.com/stubbsz/PhotoAlbum4.html

my mag is OK and has been for a while. I test too much. CA wavers a bit but the readings are always within the accepted norms.

Still baffled.

However, one millie that I got at the swap (a bar one) is showing polyps now, and I had to scrape one new 2 mm circle of coraline of the front of the tank yesterday!
 
[quote author=Phillips link=topic=3464.msg42134#msg42134 date=1209593490]
After reading the thread on here about RC being low in Mg, I tested my tank water and found out the concentration of Mg was about 850ppm.


[/quote]

exact same number I got on a new tank I set up. Calcium (after I dosed CaCl2) was at 425 and alk was at ~ 4.5meq/L
 
[quote author=Gomer link=topic=3464.msg42138#msg42138 date=1209596834]
[quote author=Phillips link=topic=3464.msg42134#msg42134 date=1209593490]
After reading the thread on here about RC being low in Mg, I tested my tank water and found out the concentration of Mg was about 850ppm.



[/quote]

exact same number I got on a new tank I set up. Calcium (after I dosed CaCl2) was at 425 and alk was at ~ 4.5meq/L
[/quote]

I hestiate to say anything about someone elses numbers when I'm the one with the problems :) But, your alk seems high to me. According to the on-line calculator I use, Balanced Alkalinity is:
3.2 meq/l at 425 ppm.

Is there any problem with that high ALK. Mine are way lower and things suck.

-Adrian
 
Back
Top