Neptune Aquatics

ethics re posting info from scientific studies online

yardartist said:
Thales said:
rygh said:
Gomer said:
GreshamH said:
Just cite the source.
Best practice if nothing else.
Plus, regardless of copyright, the skeptics will not believe you without citations.
J)

Completely untrue and the kind of 'slur' that makes people more combative than helpful.

Really? I thought he finally got it right. I am all confused about the skeptic thing. Citations good?

Citations are great - however there is plenty that people, including skeptics, will believe without citations. The idea that a skeptic will only believe you if you cite things is silly and demeaning and misses the point. People want citations when the person making the claim is an unknown, or known for making bunk claims, or when the claim is fantastic and people are looking for more info.
 
Thales said:
People want citations when the person making the claim is an unknown, or known for making bunk claims, or when the claim is fantastic and people are looking for more info.

** THIS IS NOT AN ACCUSATION. **
I think this site is usually very good on balancing skepticism/negativity.

But to respond:
Or, it can be abused when one simply wants someone else to go away or needs an easy out.
Getting full citations can be difficult in an open conversation. And everyone knows that.
And remember, these blogs are effectively conversations, not research papers.
Very often, you say things based on memory to the best of your ability, but finding that original
source can be hard, take time, and we have real jobs.
It is so easy to say simply "give me a source".
Often stops the other person short, and there is almost zero negative consequence in being wrong.
After all, it is a reasonable question.
 
rygh said:
Thales said:
People want citations when the person making the claim is an unknown, or known for making bunk claims, or when the claim is fantastic and people are looking for more info.

** THIS IS NOT AN ACCUSATION. **
I think this site is usually very good on balancing skepticism/negativity.

I don't like the equating of skepticism with negativity. They are not the same and should not be lumped together. :D
But to respond:
Or, it can be abused when one simply wants someone else to go away or needs an easy out.

Absolutely.

Getting full citations can be difficult in an open conversation. And everyone knows that.

Full citations are great, what people are asking for more often is a link to anything that supports a specific idea so the conversation is more than 'I read that'. :D
More often though, people don't want to bother looking for supporting evidence and can get downright angry when asked.
And remember, these blogs are effectively conversations, not research papers.
Very often, you say things based on memory to the best of your ability, but finding that original
source can be hard, take time, and we have real jobs.

This is a forum not a blog. :D
No issues with time or memory lapses - I would just like people to be more up front about that kind of thing. For instance, in most of your ATS thread you are pretty good at it.
It is so easy to say simply "give me a source".

And its is usually so easy to give it, or to say I don't remember. Real science for most of the things we do in our hobby doesn't exist, but links to the original source you got the idea from, if you remember it, allows people to get good background info and see if the ideas presented make sense.
On the other hand, when someone says something specific that seems outright kooky, support is necessary if there is to be a useful discussion.

Often stops the other person short, and there is almost zero negative consequence in being wrong.
After all, it is a reasonable question.

:D
 
To add a bit here about scientific journal articles.

All published scientific journals offer titles, abstracts and authors of each paper freely. Some journals are "open-access" and provide free access to compelte articles (e.g., PLoS, BMC journals). (Note, however, to publish in these journals, the authors must pay a large fee). Traditionally, scientific journals are published by for-profit publishing companies and they charge an arm and a leg for the articles or a subscription to the journal, but don't charge the authors to publish their papers there. Getting a subscription or access to a single article costs $$. Luckily, the State universities (including UC and CSU) have subscriptions to most or all of the journals in operation, and the libraries are open to the public during normal business hours. Anyone is entitled to walk right into any one of the UC Berkeley, UCSF, or SFSU libraries and sit down at a computer terminal to access journal articles that are published online, or access to look at anything on the shelves of the library. Anyone can photocopy or print out what they look at (for a fee). But, you will not be able to save a .pdf of the article unless you are a "member" of the academic institution that has the subscription. Reposting a scanned photocopy online is definitely a no-no copyright violation. But, using a photocopy to quote sections and cite the article is perfectly acceptable. Citations in this online forum should provide the URL to the journal's page where that abstract is posted.

Now - on to a matter of whether finding something in a scientific paper means it's the truth: It does not. Science is a process just like discussions in this forum are a process. Scientists often draw conclusions from data that later turn out to be wrong upon collection of additional data. One must not read just a single scientific paper in order to make a decision about a particular topic. Rather, it is important to read many (or all) research papers on the topic to evaluate the robustness of whatever scientific theory is in question. Here, one is not a skeptic as much as a critic. Reading scientific research with a critical eye yields insights as to how small variation in methodology used can result in varying data, and thus varying conclusions, across studies that address the same topic. Learning to read the scientific literature is not easy, but if one is to start looking at these articles for best results it's important to do so with the right mindset.
 
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