Help identifying Algae (diatoms/cyano/dino) ?

[MichaelB]

Thank you for the comment. I'm referring to https://www.hikariusa.com/frozen_folder/mysis_shrimp.html cubes. In one feeding i feed 1/2 a cube (3.5 oz) of either Mysis or Brine or 8 pellets (4 for each fish) (Small Pellets - 1.2mm).

I'll probably decrease my feeding as per your suggestion. What do you recommend to get my Nutrients up (NO3).

Joined as a supporting member. I honestly did not how to something like it existed. Thank you for info

First of thank you for becoming a supporting member, as i've seen it said by several others you support the club, and the club supports you.

I would say from your additional details that you are most likey ok with what you are feeding per feeding. Originally I wasn't sure if you were feeding them all of those in a single feeding twice a day like a mini buffet. I would say continue as you have but maybe try only one feeding a day for a few days and than just observe the tank conditions for better or worse effects and watch your fishes Behaviors . Than you sould adjust things slowly based on your observations.

As far as flow goes, I can't say from a picture if you have enough flow at very bottom of tank. Ideally you want enough flow on the bottom that it doesn't allow detritus to build up and settle on the bottom. You want enough flow that detritus mostly stays suspended in the water so filtration removes it. At the same time you don’t want so much flow that its blowing sand around or pissing off coarl. So you want some movement on the bottom but not to much.

Signs of not enough flow or having a dead spot (area where flow doesn't reach on the bottom would be patches of dirt, left over food, or fish poop settling in a spot on the bottom. Such as a corner next to a rock. (fyi- dead spot solution small wave maker for that area or adjusting existing flow to elimnate/reduce those spots)

You no doubt will have heaps of various advice. This is in no way implying that you do all these at the same time such would be drastic and not helpful.

I would consider feeding what your doing once a day instead of twice and observing results.

Most of all try to connect with eric (the Gentlemen that offered to use a microscope for you - he knows his stuff) get him a sample of the stuff your dealing with.

Pause the flow while you get clean small container and collect a sample of it. Than it can be viewed under microscope to identify it's type so the proper Treatment for the specific type of dinoflagellates if that's what it is can be implemented. Anything else is guessing,hoping for the best, or wasting your time with trying things that maynbe ineffective. Looking through a microscope will give you actual answers as to what it is and how to resolve it.

I'm new compared to most here and still learning myself, so please don’t consider me to be a expert. Only passing on some generalizations I’ve been able absorb.

Definitely hope your able to come out to the swap, than you can see how fun we are in person.

 

[derek_SR]

This poor person. In less than 24hrs we've suggested that they:

1. Do more water changes
2. Stop doing water changes
3. Feed more
4. Feed less
5. Add copepods (maybe)
6. Reduce filtration
7. Increase filtration
8. Add inverts
9. Wait to add inverts
10. Adjust flow
11. Address RODI
12. Adjust lighting down
13. Blackout lighting completely
14. Check stuff with microscope and take potentially even more action

No wonder new folks struggle with the hobby! Note that this person's tank is 45 days old. It's going to have some uglies. This is totally normal.

@FindingNemo9 don't stress over all of this conflicting advice. Some of it is perfectly good advice. But your tank is so new, it just needs to settle in. Give it some time before making a ton of changes. Definitely start a tank journal so we can help get some of the basics right!

 

[Alexander1312]

This poor person. In less than 24hrs we've suggested that they:

1. Do more water changes
2. Stop doing water changes
3. Feed more
4. Feed less
5. Add copepods (maybe)
6. Reduce filtration
7. Increase filtration
8. Add inverts
9. Wait to add inverts
10. Adjust flow
11. Address RODI
12. Adjust lighting down
13. Blackout lighting completely
14. Check stuff with microscope and take potentially even more action

No wonder new folks struggle with the hobby! Note that this person's tank is 45 days old. It's going to have some uglies. This is totally normal.

@FindingNemo9 don't stress over all of this conflicting advice. Some of it is perfectly good advice. But your tank is so new, it just needs to settle in. Give it some time before making a ton of changes. Definitely start a tank journal so we can help get some of the basics right!

Now seeing all of this advice listed, I feel we were still not comprehensive enough...haha

However, dinos will not disappear on their own, if these are any, and addressing them early can make it easier. Dinos are one of the top reasons for people to leave the hobby and there is still too much contradicting response on how to address them.

I am less concerned about any of the other uglies, and agree that depending on the initial tank setup, this might just happen and time is your friend.

 

[Alexander1312]

Now seeing all of this advice listed, I feel we were still not comprehensive enough...haha

However, dinos will not disappear on their own, if these are any, and addressing them early can make it easier. Dinos are one of the top reasons for people to leave the hobby and there is still too much contradicting response on how to address them.

I am less concerned about any of the other uglies, and agree that depending on the initial tank setup, this might just happen and time is your friend.

Fyi it did not keep my laughing emoji after the first sentence...

 

[Srt4eric]

Prorocentrum dinos

 

[Alexander1312]

Those are not great to have because they are a) toxic and b) do not work (well) with UV. Also, they take some time to get rid off and patience is required. I beat them twice and no longer have them visible in the nano tank for over a year, but it will test your interest to stay in the hobby.

1. This needs activated carbon as an immediate next step, and carbon needs to be replaced every 4-5 days, unfortunately, to remain effective.

2. No water change until they are gone.

3. Sodium silicate dosing to create a diatom bloom to outperform them. This really works by the way. Product link below, dosing chart attached.

High Temperature Adhesive, 2000F Rated, Sodium Silicate, Water Glass, 40% Solution, 4oz Bottle, 5602 https://a.co/d/5QGYMFU

4. Weekly microscope sample to check progress - I hated this in the beginning but started liking it because it really shows over time a significant reduction in dinos until they are gone, and it keeps the motivation up because see on the microscope progress but your tank might not look like it, because the diatoms look worse than the dinos.

5. No cleaning of the sandbed since it will also remove the diatoms (which you try to grow).

6. You can try UV but many believe this wastes your time for this type of dinos. I did not use UV.

7. Join this group for more details and guides under the files section. It is not scientific, some doubt them, but their recommendations work.

https://m.facebook.com/groups/macksreef/?ref=share

 

[Srt4eric]

@IOnceWasLegend

 

[FindingNemo9]

Thank you all,

I think I messed up. I accidentally did a water change (my 2-week water change due date) yesterday morning and added copepods based on what the LPS person told me. While doing the water change, i tried to clean up the sand bed and rock, but this morning, i see the sand-bed with dino's again.

I'll go ahead and order those today.

Do you recommend dosing NeoNitro or NeoPhos as well ??

 

[Alexander1312]

Thank you all,

I think I messed up. I accidentally did a water change (my 2-week water change due date) yesterday morning and added copepods based on what the LPS person told me. While doing the water change, i tried to clean up the sand bed and rock, but this morning, i see the sand-bed with dino's again.

I'll go ahead and order those today.

Do you recommend dosing NeoNitro or NeoPhos as well ??

Sorry, missed to address this key point - yes, both Nitrate and Phosphate should be at detectable levels with some buffer from inaccuracy of testing. Feed more vs. adding these products for now. If it really does not go up, you can increase these with these products, but I would not do this for now. Copepods are good, but overemphasized in my opinion.

 

[iCon]

Let’s not forget that this tank is less than 60 days old with very little settled in… A couple of frags, at most. Might be worth considering a less is more approach. Ie, Siphon as much out as possible and blackout.

You’ll still want to get rid of the filter floss etc as those will become detritus traps which will lead to an host of issues long-term.

With whatever path you choose, good luck!

 

[MarcosDelgado0]

Thank you all,

I think I messed up. I accidentally did a water change (my 2-week water change due date) yesterday morning and added copepods based on what the LPS person told me. While doing the water change, i tried to clean up the sand bed and rock, but this morning, i see the sand-bed with dino's again.

I'll go ahead and order those today.

Do you recommend dosing NeoNitro or NeoPhos as well ??

If you end up deciding to dose NeoNitro and NeoPhos, I have a bottle of each almost full you can have in SJ. Exp is 2026

 

[FindingNemo9]

Let’s not forget that this tank is less than 60 days old with very little settled in… A couple of frags, at most. Might be worth considering a less is more approach. Ie, Siphon as much out as possible and blackout.

You’ll still want to get rid of the filter floss etc as those will become detritus traps which will lead to an host of issues long-term.

With whatever path you choose, good luck!

Removed Filter floss and Sponge Filter as per the suggestion.

Going to continue feeding 1/2 a cube of mysis or brine for few days. If i'm not able to get the numbers up in a week or so, i'll go ahead and do the NeoPhos and NeoNitro.

Thank you.

 

[IOnceWasLegend]

I'm mostly in agreement with @Alexander1312 's points, except I'd recommend UV sterilizer before silicate dosing. This is also in response to @derek_SR 's comment, and is not aimed at anyone in particular, but I think it's helpful for everyone giving advice to provide context for why you're recommending something. This is particularly important for people new to the hobby who don't have a mechanistic understanding of everything yet, and can help someone make a decision based on conflicting advice.

Breaking this down for future readers/people coming across this while googling: In this type of situation, the best thing to do is to identify what you're dealing with using a microscope. @FindingNemo9 did that thanks to @Srt4eric and found out it was prorocentrum dinoflagellates, which is something that won't go away on its own and needs to be dealt with. Based on this, my suggestions are:

1. Ensure you have detectable nitrates and phosphates. My current school of thought, based on what I've seen from many others, is that dinoflagellates can outcompete other microorganisms in limiting-nutrient conditions (e.g., zeroed or extremely low nitrate + (especially) phosphate). Zero phosphates/nitrates = dinoflagellates multiply faster than other microorganisms = outbreak, and once they're established it's a lot more difficult than 'fixing nutrients' to get them back down. This is also why water changes are usually contraindicated in dinoflagellate outbreaks, because water change = reduced nutrients.

2. Install a UV system in your tank, the largest you can. There are some (large cell amphidinium dinoflagellates, specifically) dinos that don't go into the water column at night, but prorocentrum supposedly do after several days of blackout. UV helps kill off lots of them, and gives your other microorganisms a chance to reestablish themselves. Sample size of one, but the UV is what really worked for me when I had microscope-verified prorocentrum dinoflagellates.

3. Do a three or four-day blackout in your tank. You don't need to go crazy and wrap the tank in light-blocking material, just turn off your normal reef lights and try to block light from windows around the tank. Dinos are photosynthetic, bacteria aren't; extended blackouts supposedly encourage prorocentrum dinoflagellates to enter the water column. Both of these help tilt the balance in favor of bacteria. Make sure you run carbon during this period because dying dinoflagellates can release toxins, which can and will kill livestock, and the carbon will help neutralize that.

4. If you really want to go crazy, get a bacteria mix (Microbacter 7 for example), dilute it in tank water, suck it up into a turkey baster, and stir up/pipette the sand up and down in the turkey baster to help dislodge any sand-dwelling dinos, and seed the tank with the bacteria mix.

5. If the above don't work - and honestly, I've heard mixed reports from people on prorocentrum dinos, but the above worked for me - I'd suggest looking into silicate/waterglass dosing. I have not done this myself, but the idea is that higher silicates cause a diatom bloom - which, aside from being ugly, is harmless - and the diatoms outcompete the dinoflagellates for resources. Eventually you scale back the dosing, diatoms die off, and your tank's microbiome is reestablished.

 

[FindingNemo9]

Okay, some update.

I wanted to try out the no-chemical way first and tried the following steps.

I did a complete black-out for 2 days. Shut down the reef lights, no room-lights and no sun-light entering the room where the tank is. I didn't cover the entire thing, just left it in near dark place. During this time, I added the Activated Carbons too. I plan on changing it in 4 days for the next few weeks.

On day - 1, i started to see a lot of bacterial bloom and tank was super cloudy. By night it got clear
On day - 2, continued the same. (Also changed my wave pumps) - Got an good deal for Nero 3 wave-pump on Amazon for Memorial day and Amazon was kind enough to take the gyre back, since it was under the return window.

I can see some dead-spots underneath the Nero, I might eventually add another cheaper pump on the other side to remove the dead-spot.

Feeding 1/2 cube of my Mysis shrimp per day - Seem to get my nitrates up a bit. Currently seeing 1ppm at-least on Salifret test kits.

Day - 3 (Wednesday (29th May) - I see a clear tank from morning. No sign of any algae in the tank. I'm going to try out to turn on a 3 hour Reef lights. 1hr in the afternoon and 2 hr in the evening around (7:00 - 9:00). Hope the dynos are dead.

Hope this works out. I have a delivery from Amazon for the UV-Light and Silicate coming this week. I hope I do not need them.

One obervation is - my FrogSpawn doesn't seem to do good. Its all closed up. My other euphylias are doing good.

 

[MichaelB]

Frogspawn may like more light than the other ones do so it's it currently not happy. I would keep things as your doing for a few more days, just to make sure they are actually gone. You don't wanna jump the gun seeing that your efforts are showing progress. I would also hold on to the uv for a bit just incase you may still need it.
Hopefully it's problem solved for you.
Only time will tell.