Cali Kid Corals

Is aeration enough to manage pH?

Prestondeeply

Prestondeeply

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I just started measuring pH in the 3 wide nano tanks. These all have their own systems. No water mixing.

pH sits between 7.8 and 8.0 in all 3 tanks. I've been dosing Kalk and alk at various levels in the tanks.

From everything I've read, I should be seeing swings and I don't. At least not enough to distinguish between randomness. Kalk is dosed every 20 minutes and alk every 2 hours offset from kalk, but only during the day.

So, the only thing I can think of is aeration. I use reefglass nano skimmers. Is that enough to keep the pH stable on a 10-20g nano tank?

Or am I missing something?

-Andrew
 
Prestondeeply said:
I just started measuring pH in the 3 wide nano tanks. These all have their own systems. No water mixing.

pH sits between 7.8 and 8.0 in all 3 tanks. I've been dosing Kalk and alk at various levels in the tanks.

From everything I've read, I should be seeing swings and I don't. At least not enough to distinguish between randomness. Kalk is dosed every 20 minutes and alk every 2 hours offset from kalk, but only during the day.

So, the only thing I can think of is aeration. I use reefglass nano skimmers. Is that enough to keep the pH stable on a 10-20g nano tank?

Or am I missing something?

-Andrew
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It will depend what the bio-load (fish, coral & inverts) in your tank is as well as how much co2 build up is in your house.

If you don’t have much bio-load and your windows are open most of the time, you might not see much of a swing.

Also, what time are you measuring pH?
 
7.8 -> 8.0 is a considerable swing, if it is consistent. Not unusual, but also not nothing. For me, my max pH is just about the time the lights ramp down in the evening, and min pH is when the lights ramp up in the morning. The best way to see the swing is constant pH monitoring, which shows a fairly consistent sine-wave type curve every day.

pH is a measure of H+ concentration and is logarithmic. pH 8.0 = 10.0 nM H+. pH 7.8 is 15.8 nM H+, so more than 50% higher concentration of H+, and therefore 50% more acidic. Not trivial.
 
No fish, just coral, inverts, bacteria and algae.
Maybe I have a measurement issue then.

I'm measuring pH continuously and the 7.8-8.0 is the range across all 3 tanks. Each one has a tighter range....maybe .1.

But I'm seeing that .1 movement sample to sample every minute. So maybe I need to focus on sample stability. What is the typical range of a bluelab double junction probe? .1 is what the spec says. Is there a better probe I should invest in?

Thanks again for the help and insight
 
JVU said:
7.8 -> 8.0 is a considerable swing, if it is consistent. Not unusual, but also not nothing. For me, my max pH is just about the time the lights ramp down in the evening, and min pH is when the lights ramp up in the morning. The best way to see the swing is constant pH monitoring, which shows a fairly consistent sine-wave type curve every day.

pH is a measure of H+ concentration and is logarithmic. pH 8.0 = 10.0 nM H+. pH 7.8 is 15.8 nM H+, so more than 50% higher concentration of H+, and therefore 50% more acidic. Not trivial.
Click to expand...

Curious to know your swing and range @JVU
 
Prestondeeply said:
No fish, just coral, inverts, bacteria and algae.
Maybe I have a measurement issue then.

I'm measuring pH continuously and the 7.8-8.0 is the range across all 3 tanks. Each one has a tighter range....maybe .1.

But I'm seeing that .1 movement sample to sample every minute. So maybe I need to focus on sample stability. What is the typical range of a bluelab double junction probe? .1 is what the spec says. Is there a better probe I should invest in?

Thanks again for the help and insight
Click to expand...


The range for the probe can be quite high I think judging by the calibration packets (4,7, 10 ph) -speaking of, have you calibrated the probe of recent-and manual at that?
I find that the automated calibration can really be off substantially.

As to aeration- can make a huge difference. When my protein skimmer could not be used -ph swings were between 8 and 8.3. Most corals were “ok” but they didn’t really grow either. Now that it is working again between 8.25-8.4 daily with swing of .16 and corals def seem happier and growing. I also use macro algae and light at night to optimize PH in addition to soda lime and use of solent valve.

The soda lime also makes a big difference pushing the ph up to the upper range.

I am working with a 65 gal system so more room to get things in operation.
 
L/B Block said:
Curious to know your swing and range @JVU
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I’ve been thinking about using kalkwasser (calcium hydroxide) during unlit hours and my usual Core7 (carbonate) during lit hours to reduce the swing. I already reverse-light my large refugium.
 
JVU said:
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I’ve been thinking about using kalkwasser (calcium hydroxide) during unlit hours and my usual Core7 (carbonate) during lit hours to reduce the swing. I already reverse-light my large refugium.
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Always a challenge to get those swings smaller.

My current cycle. My goal is to cut the protein skimmer for hour 2x a day while phytoplankton being dosed to bring down the Top of swing a bit.

Kalkwasser always make nervous in respects if something goes wrong. Also I don’t know if I can fit anymore equipment in my sump!
 

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My PH has always felt on the low side in my tanks, currently swings between 7.95 and 8.15 or so. I am not super concerned about it but I am curious how folks so regularly get 8.3+?

I am using kalk (though not a lot yet, 2L per day or so), have a skimmer going 24/7, and have no other dosing. The CO2 meter next to the tank reads 450-550 much of the day with a window always open nearby.

What am I missing? I calibrate regularly with 4/7/10 solution and have even tried a different brand of probe recently so I don't think it's a measurement issue.
 
At @Prestondeeply and @SepToob -question -how big are your tanks and what do you have running for circulation pumps? How many and where are they pointing?


One or two extra midway down tank angled towards the surface of the water may help surface agitation.

I have an extra wav that I took offline due to size (I downsized my tank) that I may just put in back of tank and point towards water surface at lowest point of day for couple of hours. Will let you know I see a discernible difference!
 
L/B Block said:
At @Prestondeeply and @SepToob -question -how big are your tanks and what do you have running for circulation pumps? How many and where are they pointing?


One or two extra midway down tank angled towards the surface of the water may help surface agitation.

I have an extra wav that I took offline due to size (I downsized my tank) that I may just put in back of tank and point towards water surface at lowest point of day for couple of hours. Will let you know I see a discernible difference!
Click to expand...

My tank is 6ft, 225g. There are two return nozzles both breaking the surface of the water, and then a large gyre on either end of the tank near the surface that also agitate the water. I've got a skimmer going 24/7 and small "waterfalls" between each baffle of the sump that also agitate.

Certainly that's enough? My understanding of gas exhange is limited, but the CO2 is steady and low in the room, so I would think the tank would adjust to that and "equalize" ?

Something Jake Adams said on reefbuilders has stuck with me - something about sandbeds and a bunch of extra bacteria "breathing" and pushing PH down. He's the only person I've ever heard mention this but maybe I have a lot of aerobic bacteria creating a ton of CO2 in the tank?
 
Good aeration in a larger reef tank is absolutely 100% not sufficient to normalize pH to the CO2 level in the air. If it was, we would not all see the same pH graphs where it goes up when there’s photosynthesis+metabolism (day), and down when just metabolism (night). And yes, metabolism includes everything that’s alive in your tank including bacteria, pods, bristle worms, algae, coral, fish, snails, etc.

I did some trials with my tank with large very much overpowered air pumps in the overflow chamber (full height of tank) and sump. In addition to skimmer, pumps, etc 24/7. It didn’t make much difference in pH. Did make a mess though :)

Certainly CO2 in the air around the tank will noticeably nudge the tank pH up or down, we’ve all seen it. But it is not the driving force that causes that daily up/down pattern in pH. If you have a bunch of living stuff in your tank and a bunch of photosynthesis happening, they vastly dominate.
 
What would you guys recommend as the most cost effective way to measure ph?
My API test kit regularly reads 8.0 but I don’t put much stock in it.

I recently added a Sicce Shark to my sump to increase aeration/agitation at night.
 
JVU said:
Good aeration in a larger reef tank is absolutely 100% not sufficient to normalize pH to the CO2 level in the air. If it was, we would not all see the same pH graphs where it goes up when there’s photosynthesis+metabolism (day), and down when just metabolism (night). And yes, metabolism includes everything that’s alive in your tank including bacteria, pods, bristle worms, algae, coral, fish, snails, etc.

I did some trials with my tank with large very much overpowered air pumps in the overflow chamber (full height of tank) and sump. In addition to skimmer, pumps, etc 24/7. It didn’t make much difference in pH. Did make a mess though :)

Certainly CO2 in the air around the tank will noticeably nudge the tank pH up or down, we’ve all seen it. But it is not the driving force that causes that daily up/down pattern in pH. If you have a bunch of living stuff in your tank and a bunch of photosynthesis happening, they vastly dominate.
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Thanks - that makes sense. So in my case I think the "living stuff" probably just outweighs the stuff photosynthesizing which keeps my PH lowish relative to some more established tanks that have a larger coral load. It'll be interesting to see if my PH creeps up over time as the corals grow.
 
SepToob said:
Thanks - that makes sense. So in my case I think the "living stuff" probably just outweighs the stuff photosynthesizing which keeps my PH lowish relative to some more established tanks that have a larger coral load. It'll be interesting to see if my PH creeps up over time as the corals grow.
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I do find that it has been a culmination of lime soda in a canister, refugium with a lot of sea lettuce and reverse lighting, skimmer nearly 24/7 to get that ph up. A lot of trial/error.
 
SepToob said:
My PH has always felt on the low side in my tanks, currently swings between 7.95 and 8.15 or so. I am not super concerned about it but I am curious how folks so regularly get 8.3+?

I am using kalk (though not a lot yet, 2L per day or so), have a skimmer going 24/7, and have no other dosing. The CO2 meter next to the tank reads 450-550 much of the day with a window always open nearby.

What am I missing? I calibrate regularly with 4/7/10 solution and have even tried a different brand of probe recently so I don't think it's a measurement issue.
Click to expand...
Out of curiosity, what do you keep your alk at?

Also do you have any algae? I have found of you let a LITTLE algae grow, it helps a lot to boost your pH. Keeping the balance of not letting the algae take over is a separate question.
 
Meshmez said:
Out of curiosity, what do you keep your alk at?

Also do you have any algae? I have found of you let a LITTLE algae grow, it helps a lot to boost your pH. Keeping the balance of not letting the algae take over is a separate question.
Click to expand...

I keep it around 8. No particular reason that’s just kind of where it settled so I made it my target.

I get a little bit of turf algae in nooks and crannies, and have to clean the glass pretty frequently. But with all of the urchins and tangs the tank stays pretty much algae free.
 
I've got small 10 and 20g tanks. Use a lot of water movement and aerate. Lots of coral, no fish.

I think my measurement is off so that's my first goal....find a better measurement stick....at least 2 significant digits.
 
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