It’s been real:Real Talk w the BOD THANK YOU BOD!

[anthonyvyeda]

Word to the wise, you are going down the same path NVR did a few years back. Trying to make a good club better seems to be taking it's toll. Soon reliable old members will move on and leave the club in the hands of people with big ideas that may not materialize. I wish the best to this club and all of its members.

 

[ofzakaria]

Hi Everyone.... thanks. I needed a day or so to have a clear head. I want to share with you what I sent to Will regarding my thread:

Thanks for reaching out. I just read over the new buy/sell forum rules and I am impressed by the level of detail and completeness. To be honest, this was one of my biggest concerns: How were new members like myself to know who is actually selling to promote the hobby and who sells and flips. I appreciate the BOD's attention to this matter and love that you all took members' concerns seriously. I just see the same names all the time. That may be because those members are more active, I'm too new to tell.

I think what really bothered me was the discussion around a member selling his tank and the DBTC corals that it contained. I guess I don't understand what the difference is between what that member wanted to do and the current 2 frag rule before being able to sell corals originating from DBTC. I think it is a great program, but it is also an easy way to start a coral business. If the rules are that specific, why not just a) get rid of the rule completely or b) require all frags coming from DBTC are to go back in the program. There are plenty of folks who are starting out that would love to break into corals but it is really cost prohibitive. This way the club is really building the hobby, and not supporting a start up business.

Also, it would be great with some of the available funds to go towards some non-coral club buys or equipment purchases. For example, it would be cool to have some extra (used) equipment laying around so that members could borrow the equipment in case of a failure... (I'm thinking heaters; sumps; maybe even a few tanks). Or to even have an emergency list of who can take on additional livestock in case of emergency... evacuations; fires; tank failures etc.

Finally, i think I did overreact a bit on a thread I started regarding HOB skimmers. I understand the importance of tank parameters when diagnosing problems, but I thought my question & OP was pretty straight forward.. maybe not. I am used to be in the sailing community and as a former instructor I remember too many times I went above and beyond to show my knowledge and complicated simple questions. And in my professional life I often see the differences in how men and women communicate. I'm going to take the mulligan on that one, and I sincerely apologize. I think that overall this is a great club. And I also have a lot to learn.

Again, this is coming from a newbie place, I don't want to disrespect the BOD and Staff who work hard to keep this going, especially with COVID. Thanks for listening and please keep the check, it is money well spent.

Much gratitude,
Susan

Thank you so much for giving us a chance and for seeing the good in us
I agree with you, the recent push for transparency on the seller forum will help our users and advance the hobby in bay area.
Welcome back!

 

[Susan Ingram]

Thank you so much for giving us a chance and for seeing the good in us
I agree with you, the recent push for transparency on the seller forum will help our users and advance the hobby in bay area.
Welcome back!

And thank you!!!

 

[Mr. Ugly]

I guess I don't understand what the difference is between what that member wanted to do and the current 2 frag rule before being able to sell corals originating from DBTC. I think it is a great program, but it is also an easy way to start a coral business. If the rules are that specific, why not just a) get rid of the rule completely or b) require all frags coming from DBTC are to go back in the program. There are plenty of folks who are starting out that would love to break into corals but it is really cost prohibitive. This way the club is really building the hobby, and not supporting a start up business.

That is how it was when DBTC originally started. That was roughly the common expectation within the club.

Occasional someone worried that a person asking for a coral might be more interested in things not relating to progagating and freely sharing corals/knowledge/appreciation. So they tacked on a rule like “share 2 before selling”.

DBTC is based on PIF which is strongly altruistic and community building. Members valued that, and didn’t want DBTC to become something that didn’t prioritize the coral as a living animal, and didn’t uphold the club’s mission.

The basic idea was propagate and share. Even “give me back a frag if my tank crashes” was more of an understanding than an explicit rule. It’s like you don’t need a lot of rules if you are just hanging out with your best friends. DBTC was like the Amish friendship bread of reefers, haha.

DBTC grew very quickly, and members became excited to give away corals. A lot of members asked what were the rules for giving away stuff. They were told, “whatever you want them to be. it’s your coral”.

So if they really didn’t care other than wanting to share, and they didn’t want to read a bunch of other posts to see if others made rules, they would just tack on “standard rules apply” at the end of their posts. They relied on honor system and altruism and just referenced ”whatever everybody else is doing” since they were cool with how things were going on.

Rules became more formalized over time.

 

[Archaic37]

DBTC Full Tank Sale OP here, a couple points I'd like to touch on since this in an important conversation to keep the club healthy.

I served on Central Valley Reefers BOD for 3 years acting as events organizer and president. I am extremely familiar with the politics of reef forums.

First I only have 6 DBTC corals (17 total), 5 of them from Coral Reefer who was okay with me passing them along to a new member with the tank. I don't frag and flip corals, the DBTC are still not fragable. The idea that my tank was full of DBTC is not correct.

Second, I didn't receive a single PM from a BOD member to have a civil discussion about my sale thread. Instead it was aired out for all members to see, which is now going to make my tank sale a.bit more difficult. At CVR we would take down posts that violated rules even slightly, contact the OP, resolve the issue and allow it to be reposted. I still have not received any apology or thank you from the BOD (who was critical of the sale) for working through the DBTC issue.

Having been active in NVR, BAR and CVR for over 6 years the members see the BOD as having power and access to the hobby which causes jealousy and a divide. This is not a cheap hobby and every time money is involved either with a sale or membership dues it can become polar. The club needs money to support the website, events and prizes but members can easily feel burnt when a non profit simply collects it and does not return it with hobby related items as it claims to do. I am not saying this is what BAR does since I haven't been to any events in a long time, but this is what I saw with CVR. CVR would have HUGE raffles, Christmas parties, frag seminars and try to give back as much as we could. Everyone who went to our frag swaps would get insane corals (CVR purchased) and so many members (veteran and newbies) would win excellent equipment (apex, skimmers, radions, rock sculptures). We took advantage of our distributor access to elevate everyone in the hobby.

These clubs have unfortunately shifted to facebook, partially to escape the drama, partially because of the format user experience. It makes sense why we only see the same handful of people posting, they are dedicated to the club and site and veterans. It is unfortunate that the clubs dirty laundry is aired publicly where new and veteran users will see it and form a negative opinion of the site and club.

 

[bluprntguy]

DBTC Full Tank Sale OP here, a couple points I'd like to touch on since this in an important conversation to keep the club healthy.

I served on Central Valley Reefers BOD for 3 years acting as events organizer and president. I am extremely familiar with the politics of reef forums.

First I only have 6 DBTC corals (17 total), 5 of them from Coral Reefer who was okay with me passing them along to a new member with the tank. I don't frag and flip corals, the DBTC are still not fragable. The idea that my tank was full of DBTC is not correct.

Second, I didn't receive a single PM from a BOD member to have a civil discussion about my sale thread. Instead it was aired out for all members to see, which is now going to make my tank sale a.bit more difficult. At CVR we would take down posts that violated rules even slightly, contact the OP, resolve the issue and allow it to be reposted. I still have not received any apology or thank you from the BOD (who was critical of the sale) for working through the DBTC issue.

Having been active in NVR, BAR and CVR for over 6 years the members see the BOD as having power and access to the hobby which causes jealousy and a divide. This is not a cheap hobby and every time money is involved either with a sale or membership dues it can become polar. The club needs money to support the website, events and prizes but members can easily feel burnt when a non profit simply collects it and does not return it with hobby related items as it claims to do. I am not saying this is what BAR does since I haven't been to any events in a long time, but this is what I saw with CVR. CVR would have HUGE raffles, Christmas parties, frag seminars and try to give back as much as we could. Everyone who went to our frag swaps would get insane corals (CVR purchased) and so many members (veteran and newbies) would win excellent equipment (apex, skimmers, radions, rock sculptures). We took advantage of our distributor access to elevate everyone in the hobby.

These clubs have unfortunately shifted to facebook, partially to escape the drama, partially because of the format user experience. It makes sense why we only see the same handful of people posting, they are dedicated to the club and site and veterans. It is unfortunate that the clubs dirty laundry is aired publicly where new and veteran users will see it and form a negative opinion of the site and club.

I agree with this about the increasing lack of basic civility on this forum. BOD has become abrasive and disrespectful to the members and it seems to be increasing of late. Their primary objective these days seems to be about supporting LFS and protecting their businesses instead of focusing on the members here. It’s difficult to see a club go from being somewhere that people want to go and share ideas to something that’s become something where every change seems to be about increasing drama and incivility to the point that this becomes just like every other reef board.

Sorry everyone on this thread had a bad experience. It didn‘t used to be like this.

 

[Mike Yasin]

b) require all frags coming from DBTC are to go back in the program <---- This

I'm starting to consider DBTC for some of my favorite SPS in a few months. Besides the DBTC, I'd rather trade with members here rather than selling, but that would require that they have what they want and vice versa. My specific concern is that if I DBTC a frag that still runs hundreds among sellers, then I would most likely put lots of restrictions on it - yes, if mine dies, I'd want to skip the line and get the next one, and if the current member moves on and doesn't return to the club, s/he would have to return the coral to a member's tank for redistribution, etc.

I'm just not sure if all this is enforceable, etc., So if I go this route, I'd probably choose among a few members here - like the BODs - to propagate initially. I'd personally love to make someone's day with a frag of a high end piece, but the point (to me) is that the coral gets into a diverse pool of tanks, and in the free distribution chain among trusted and proven SPS keepers and never sold or traded.

 

[Coral reefer]

I agree with this about the increasing lack of basic civility on this forum. BOD has become abrasive and disrespectful to the members and it seems to be increasing of late. Their primary objective these days seems to be about supporting LFS and protecting their businesses instead of focusing on the members here. It’s difficult to see a club go from being somewhere that people want to go and share ideas to something that’s become something where every change seems to be about increasing drama and incivility to the point that this becomes just like every other reef board.

Sorry everyone on this thread had a bad experience. It didn‘t used to be like this.

I’d have to re read the thread, but I think I was the only or at least main BOD involved. I also hunk I was not uncivil or promoting drama. I don’t understand this sentiment. Maybe you should volunteer or at least attend the BOD meetings so you can help steer the ship on what you perceived be the right course.

 

[bluprntguy]

b) require all frags coming from DBTC are to go back in the program <---- This

I'm starting to consider DBTC for some of my favorite SPS in a few months. Besides the DBTC, I'd rather trade with members here rather than selling, but that would require that they have what they want and vice versa. My specific concern is that if I DBTC a frag that still runs hundreds among sellers, then I would most likely put lots of restrictions on it - yes, if mine dies, I'd want to skip the line and get the next one, and if the current member moves on and doesn't return to the club, s/he would have to return the coral to a member's tank for redistribution, etc.

I'm just not sure if all this is enforceable, etc., So if I go this route, I'd probably choose among a few members here - like the BODs - to propagate initially. I'd personally love to make someone's day with a frag of a high end piece, but the point (to me) is that the coral gets into a diverse pool of tanks, and in the free distribution chain among trusted and proven SPS keepers and never sold or traded.

Just because this is a requirement of the DBTC program, doesn’t mean that the appropriate response is for BOD to publicly berate a member on a thread.

 

[Coral reefer]

b) require all frags coming from DBTC are to go back in the program <---- This

I'm starting to consider DBTC for some of my favorite SPS in a few months. Besides the DBTC, I'd rather trade with members here rather than selling, but that would require that they have what they want and vice versa. My specific concern is that if I DBTC a frag that still runs hundreds among sellers, then I would most likely put lots of restrictions on it - yes, if mine dies, I'd want to skip the line and get the next one, and if the current member moves on and doesn't return to the club, s/he would have to return the coral to a member's tank for redistribution, etc.

I'm just not sure if all this is enforceable, etc., So if I go this route, I'd probably choose among a few members here - like the BODs - to propagate initially. I'd personally love to make someone's day with a frag of a high end piece, but the point (to me) is that the coral gets into a diverse pool of tanks, and in the free distribution chain among trusted and proven SPS keepers and never sold or traded.

The sad reality is that nothing is really enforceable. It is indeed a trust based system. Choose your recipients well and or take chances are all you can really do. Once we give people things it’s out of our hands what they will do with them. Hoping they do the right thing is all you can do at that point.

 

[ofzakaria]

Just because this is a requirement of the DBTC program, doesn’t mean that the appropriate response is for BOD to publicly berate a member on a thread.

No one berated the OP. As a matter of fact the BOD memeber who was engaged in the diacussion was defending the OP

 

[Oakland Evan]

BOD has become abrasive and disrespectful to the members and it seems to be increasing of late. Their primary objective these days seems to be about supporting LFS and protecting their businesses instead of focusing on the members here. It’s difficult to see a club go from being somewhere that people want to go and share ideas to something that’s become something where every change seems to be about increasing drama and incivility to the point that this becomes just like every other reef board.

WOW, literally couldn't disagree with this statement more. The BOD is a bunch a good hearted volunteers who I feel have been taking uncalled for abuse from people who won't volunteer their own time. This is the Bay Area, I don't think one member of the BOD needs to use their "power" to gain financially, they all seem to be doing just fine.

 

[Mike Yasin]

Just because this is a requirement of the DBTC program, doesn’t mean that the appropriate response is for BOD to publicly berate a member on a thread.

Berating someone is never appropriate- with that I agree.

I would need to read through again, I think some of the first comments were that why didn't the OP go to the DBTC starter and offer the return, or back to the thread and offer it out.

Some comments making value judgments on the set up were not how I would've chosen to respond.

 

[JVU]

DBTC Full Tank Sale OP here, a couple points I'd like to touch on since this in an important conversation to keep the club healthy.

I served on Central Valley Reefers BOD for 3 years acting as events organizer and president. I am extremely familiar with the politics of reef forums.

First I only have 6 DBTC corals (17 total), 5 of them from Coral Reefer who was okay with me passing them along to a new member with the tank. I don't frag and flip corals, the DBTC are still not fragable. The idea that my tank was full of DBTC is not correct.

Second, I didn't receive a single PM from a BOD member to have a civil discussion about my sale thread. Instead it was aired out for all members to see, which is now going to make my tank sale a.bit more difficult. At CVR we would take down posts that violated rules even slightly, contact the OP, resolve the issue and allow it to be reposted. I still have not received any apology or thank you from the BOD (who was critical of the sale) for working through the DBTC issue.

Having been active in NVR, BAR and CVR for over 6 years the members see the BOD as having power and access to the hobby which causes jealousy and a divide. This is not a cheap hobby and every time money is involved either with a sale or membership dues it can become polar. The club needs money to support the website, events and prizes but members can easily feel burnt when a non profit simply collects it and does not return it with hobby related items as it claims to do. I am not saying this is what BAR does since I haven't been to any events in a long time, but this is what I saw with CVR. CVR would have HUGE raffles, Christmas parties, frag seminars and try to give back as much as we could. Everyone who went to our frag swaps would get insane corals (CVR purchased) and so many members (veteran and newbies) would win excellent equipment (apex, skimmers, radions, rock sculptures). We took advantage of our distributor access to elevate everyone in the hobby.

These clubs have unfortunately shifted to facebook, partially to escape the drama, partially because of the format user experience. It makes sense why we only see the same handful of people posting, they are dedicated to the club and site and veterans. It is unfortunate that the clubs dirty laundry is aired publicly where new and veteran users will see it and form a negative opinion of the site and club.

I think you are being unfair about the Board’s role in how your thread went. All of the people posting negatively about the DBTC part of your sale were not Board members. Only 1 Board member even posted anywhere in your thread, and we was the one who gave you most of the DBTC corals, and was friendly and supportive of you and your situation, multiple times. I never saw your thread before now. As far as I know no one else on the Board did either. The Board certainly never convened to discuss your thread, so blaming action or lack of action on the Board is off-target. How is it my job to intercede exactly? We are not the managers or staff of the organization. We also don’t always agree on everything ourselves because we are all individuals. The Board is for high-level governance decisions, not compulsively reading every thread and intervening every day. The community needs to be almost entirely self-policing and self-respecting to work.

The main change I’ve seen recently is that lots of members seem agitated and quick to judge and point fingers, at each other and also at the Board, who usually have nothing to do with the complaint. I think it’s fair to say nobody likes all the negative drama, but somehow it is increasing anyway from the membership. Often it appears to be stoked by the people who seem to like it the least. I’m willing to chalk it up to this year sucking so momentously bad for everyone and for the club, in so many ways. But I think if people just take a minute to think before they type and are just slightly kinder and more generous with benefit of the doubt, we will see a huge improvement. At least I hope we do, for the health and future existence of the club.

 

[Coral reefer]

I think you are being unfair about the Board’s role in how your thread went. All of the people posting negatively about the DBTC part of your sale were not Board members. Only 1 Board member even posted anywhere in your thread, and we was the one who gave you most of the DBTC corals, and was friendly and supportive of you and your situation, multiple times. I never saw your thread before now. As far as I know no one else on the Board did either. The Board certainly never convened to discuss your thread, so blaming action or lack of action on the Board is off-target. How is it my job to intercede exactly? We are not the managers or staff of the organization. We also don’t always agree on everything ourselves because we are all individuals. The Board is for high-level governance decisions, not compulsively reading every thread and intervening every day. The community needs to be almost entirely self-policing and self-respecting to work.

The main change I’ve seen recently is that lots of members seem agitated and quick to judge and point fingers, at each other and also at the Board, who usually have nothing to do with the complaint. I think it’s fair to say nobody likes all the negative drama, but somehow it is increasing anyway from the membership. Often it appears to be stoked by the people who seem to like it the least. I’m willing to chalk it up to this year sucking so momentously bad for everyone and for the club, in so many ways. But I think if people just take a minute to think before they type and are just slightly kinder and more generous with benefit of the doubt, we will see a huge improvement. At least I hope we do, for the health and future existence of the club.

I wish everyone had heard wills (@Wlachnit) comments to bein the BOD meeting Saturday. He addressed this very well.
In the words of Rodney king (I believe?) can’t we all just get along?
We need to give people the benefit of the doubt sometimes, and remember, it is usually more effective to talk to someone directly if you have a problem than to just post for everyone to see. Not saying you can’t post whatever you want and air things out, but I am saying it’s usually more effective, and less likely to revolve into negative drama when you reach out to someone directly. I know I would have preferred a couple members take things up with me directly than to post some of the things they did about me recently.
Instead of joining in on that nonsense I took up my issues with them privately, and I believe we have all moved on in a (hopefully) positive direction since then.

 

[Archaic37]

We are not the managers or staff of the organization.

The BODs job is absolutely to help manage the organization. That includes being mediators when members have a disagreement on the rules. I don't expect the BOD to sit on the forum all day but when hot threads come up they should be discussed and remedied.
Apologies I had confused a member with a BOD member based on their comments.

 

[Coral reefer]

The BODs job is absolutely to help manage the organization. That includes being mediators when members have a disagreement on the rules. I don't expect the BOD to sit on the forum all day but when hot threads come up they should be discussed and remedied.
Apologies I had confused a member with a BOD member based on their comments.

I did step in and try to deescalate the situation. I did think some people were overly critical. I do not believe in hiding/locking/deleting threads or censoring most of the time. I am sorry you had to deal with that.

 

[ofzakaria]

The BODs job is absolutely to help manage the organization. That includes being mediators when members have a disagreement on the rules. I don't expect the BOD to sit on the forum all day but when hot threads come up they should be discussed and remedied.
Apologies I had confused a member with a BOD member based on their comments.

I will own this right here and say it was me who brought up the point that DBTC should not be part of the sale, at least not until its offered back in the pool first.. It was not BOD. As a matter of fact the BOD was on your side, it was myself and other users who was debating.
I really hope by now you at least understand where we came from. We are trying to hold certain rules and credibility to the DBTC thats it.

 

[ofzakaria]

The BODs job is absolutely to help manage the organization. That includes being mediators when members have a disagreement on the rules. I don't expect the BOD to sit on the forum all day but when hot threads come up they should be discussed and remedied.
Apologies I had confused a member with a BOD member based on their comments.

Just incase its not clear, i will apologize if you felt offended by any way. Again this had nothing to do with the BOD. It was couple users like myself and others.
Important thing here is that you do not take it in a bad way and give us a chance to see that our heart was in the right place..

 

[JVU]

The BODs job is absolutely to help manage the organization. That includes being mediators when members have a disagreement on the rules. I don't expect the BOD to sit on the forum all day but when hot threads come up they should be discussed and remedied.
Apologies I had confused a member with a BOD member based on their comments.

I generally avoid the back/forth public posting thing because it can devolve quickly. But I do have to push back here because I think there is a serious misconception here that matters beyond this conversation.

It is important for the members to realize that there functionally are no staff in our small club. The Board’s mandate in the Bylaws and by law is governance, not granular management, of the organization. Because we are too small to have the managers and staff that we would optimally, and because those who serve on the Board generally care a lot about the club, we do try to help when we can when things are going off the rails, like Mike did in your thread (I noticed other members tried to help too). And it is true that Board members are the ones with moderator credentials if they become needed (because we can’t hire staff). But it certainly isn’t anywhere in the Board responsibilities to police every thread, and quite frankly it isn’t possible. As it has been mentioned, the best way to prevent public-thread conflict is with upfront personal interaction via PM, phone call, etc. I recommend anyone who is considering starting something inflammatory online to first PM or call the member they aren’t happy with and try to sort it out civilly. I know it is easier said than done. Unfortunately COVID has prevented BAR from meeting for the most part this year, which is too bad because knowing someone personally usually prevents assuming the worst about them online.

We are all in this together my friends.