WYSIWYG SPS Coral Colonies
- Thread starter ClearWaterAquarium
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The BOD has told me that I will no longer be able to post preorders and group buys. Follow my facebook page for Biota and import news. https://www.facebook.com/ClearWaterAquariumCA
How come?
fishy408
Supporting Member
Sad to hear. I will ask the BOD why they have restricted this service. I would love to know what policy/rules it violates. My personal opinion is this is one of the coolest things that a LFS can do for the community.
I assume I pissed off another store that someone on the BOD is friends with. That's all I can think of. Not trying to start drama though.
BAYMAC
Supporting Member
I can't speak for the BOD, but what you are doing isn't the best of the animals thus it basically violates section B of the By-laws
BAR By-laws
Bay Area Reefers By-laws v4.0 Article I - Establishment Name and Purpose of the Organization Section A The name of the organization shall be the Bay Area Reefers (BAR), a non-profit educational group. Section B The purpose of the organization is to promote, foster, and encourage education and...
www.bareefers.org
I don't understand how this is so. How is going directly to the customer versus into my tanks any different for the fish/coral? This is assuming that customers take worse care of the livestock? I would argue that going direct to the customer is better than bouncing from the farm, to the wholesaler, to the retail store, and then to the customer.
BAYMAC
Supporting Member
Bag time. If you don't tank it, it sits in the bag that much longer. You're not doing something new, plenty of done it before... notice not many people do it though? You risk a 6th Avenue stink.
like I said, I don't speak for the BOD even in the slightest. I did however help make the By-Laws, and I have imported and exported thousands of boxes in all stages of the industry. I've fought for better CoC handling. I'm simply calling it as I see it.
Maybe I am a dummy but I don’t see how pick-up directly from the LFS and putting into a home tank directly is worse for livestock than going into the LFS tank then to the home tank a few weeks later.
I have ordered from Bioto several times. They ship directly to my home. If I wanted to save on shipping how is it worse if Biota ships to an LFS and I picked up the bag immediately upon arrival at the LFS?
BAYMAC
Supporting Member
I was not aware Biota shipped freshly collected wild coral that was just imported and turned around and shipped to customers... basically transshipped.
They dont stay in the bag any longer though... thats why sps pickup is at midnight. Thats when it arrives at the store. People pick it out of the box as soon as we receive it. Indo to SFO to the store and they literally grab the livestock the second the box comes in the door.
The coral comes direct from Indonesia to SFO where I pick it up. Biota and coral shipments are completely separate. Coral is not coming from biota. Biota pickups are for just fish and clams. Those are biota to store and then must be picked up right away as well. We import both coral and fish direct from indo once or twice a month.
BAYMAC
Supporting Member
even worse. Simply not ethical treatment. Its never been something the club has approved of, you're not being singled out.... 6Th ave was never even allowed to become a sponsor pretty much because of that.
You caught the sarcasm. Exactly my point. Comparing shipping captive bred stateside shipments with freshly collected coral with probably 20+ hours bag time isn't even remotely the same thing as Slingfix was suggesting.
You're saying importing coral and fish isn't ethical? Isn't that how 95% of all coral and fish come to market? I dont understand what you're arguing - that this shouldn't be a hobby at all? Or only US based tank raised fish and coral?
Biota orders and coral orders are separate. Separate days, separate times separate shipments.
And heads up, biota breeds most of their fish overseas.
Also curious as to why you're referencing 6th Ave. Neptune and Aquatic Collection both sell imported coral and fish. All of the local fish stores sell imported coral and fish.
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Thales
Past President
That seems a terrible way to not start drama.
No, saying bag lot sales are not ethical, a la 6th avenue - and that there is a lot of death in the hobby in the coc which is part of went into the by laws of the club. Bouncing animals from ocean to tank to shipping to tank to shipping to tank to shipping is exacly when the animals are often most stressed, and this is when they arrive at the LFS. Tanking them in a store gives them time to recover, or die, before going onto the end user. Comparing what Biota does to what wild caught animals go through doesn't make much sense as the two processes are very different in terms of chain of custody.
I guess I dont see the difference in ethics between direct from source to end consumer versus source to store and then consumer. If the fish traveled poorly to the point it is going to die thats horrible but whether it dies in a store tank or a hobbiests qt makes no difference ethically. Bad ethics would be if my customers were unaware. If they make the choice to pay far less and take the risk themselves than what's the issue? It would be unethical to have the fish sit in bags longer but thats not the case here. Every single saltwater fish I import from Indonesia is individually bagged. They are never bag lots.
In the case of Biota orders I would argue that they will spend less time in the bag with a less stressful journey flying southwest cargo and being picked up at my store than FedEx. If you've been in the industry you should be aware of how often FedEx, UPS, and on trac shipments are delayed, lost, and left in hot/cold environments not to mention the tossing around by staff and bumps of the road. Airport to airport is much more ethical. And no i dont see a difference between flying from Palau versus flying from Indonesia except that its a longer flight from Palau.
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Thales
Past President
We have no idea what happens to most of the imported animals at the source, and there are often long transit times, and long times in bags, being moved from holding system to holding system. The ethics comes into play in trying to give the animals the best chance at survival - 1) after import, and no knowing how the treatment has been to that point, giving the animal time to recover, and 2) an importer has more sway with an exporter that ships animals that don't make it than a hobbyist.
The life of the animals is the issue, as well as the continuation of the hobby. Bag lot sales (a 'lot' of 'bags' being sold, not a lot of animals in one bag) are a way for importers/stores to reduce risk, and pass that risk onto customers.
As a club, and as a person interested in the long term survival of the hobby and industry, I am against bag lot sales, but if there was compelling ongoing documentation on survivorship from a particular exporter, I would be happy to look at it.
Biota is not collecting to ship for the hobby. Whereever the animals are cared for, they are already acclimated to aquarium life - wild caught animals are not. As such, they are more roubust to handle shipping stress than wild caught animals in the coc. The animals from Palau, or anywhere not stateside, are shipped to their FL facility for tanking and observation before shipping out direct to customers. The issue is not flight lengths or problems (though that makes the case for LFS tanking newly arrived animals), one of the issues is how the animals were kept and tanks and transferred prior to shipping stateside.
This conversation is specifically regarding me preordering mariculture SPS colonies and preordering yellow tangs/clams from Biota. BAYMAC is stating that it is unethical for me to sell SPS colonies the night they arrive nor to sell Biota tangs the morning they arrive (in their original bag - no double acclimation). It seems he then went on to state that all imports are unethical. I am arguing that it is just as ethical if not more ethical to have the yellow tangs/clams picked up right after they arrive at my store than to have them shipped via FedEx and that there is nothing unethical about people picking up the exact SPS colony they want for an amazing deal night of import.
This is not what this post was about but on import night those that show up are welcome to purchase other fish I have brought in at a very healthy discount. As you stated I have much less risk to take if they purchase them directly out of the box. I don't see this as unethical; I would argue that the customers that show up night of import are just as capable of taking care of a newly imported fish as I am and are aware of the risks. If the fish arrives DOA that's on me - not a customer. My exporter isn't aware of what coral is a preorder or for me and treat all of my shipment the same. Yes, I'm passing on the risk to the customer but if they are aware of that and are just as capable of taking care of the fish than what is the ethical dilemma? People new to the hobby that have no idea what they are doing aren't showing up at midnight on a Thursday to pick up WYSIWYG SPS colonies...
As a local fish store owner, I'm sharing my honest perspective on the topic of selling corals out of the bag.
I firmly believe that personal responsibility plays a crucial role in this industry. Rich and BAYMAC have aptly pointed out that, as retailers, we have a duty to prioritize the health and well-being of the animals in our care. This responsibility encompasses proper acclimation and conditioning before sale, ensuring that our customers' new corals have the best possible chance of thriving.
When corals and fish arrive at our stores after a long, stressful journey, many hobbyists may not possess the necessary expertise to provide the specialized care they require. That's where our experience and expertise as local fish store owners become invaluable. We have a unique opportunity to make a positive impact on the lives of these animals and the success of our customers' aquariums.
Selling corals, especially sensitive species like Acropora, directly out of the bag without proper acclimation and care completely goes against the principles of responsible animal husbandry. It's also contrary to the mission statement of BAR, which emphasizes our commitment to promoting sustainable and compassionate practices in the reef-keeping community.
Besides, this approach is consistent with other pet industries, where reputable breeders and sellers prioritize the health and welfare of the animals they sell. By adopting this mindset, we can build trust with our customers, promote a positive reputation for our industry, and contribute to a more sustainable and compassionate reefing. We don’t buy newborn puppies straight from the breeder. Neither should we buy corals straight out of the bag where they were raised in the ocean half a world away.
Ultimately, our goal should be to prioritize the well-being of the animals in our care and ensure that they receive the best possible treatment, from the moment they arrive at our stores to their new homes with our customers.
I firmly believe that personal responsibility plays a crucial role in this industry. Rich and BAYMAC have aptly pointed out that, as retailers, we have a duty to prioritize the health and well-being of the animals in our care. This responsibility encompasses proper acclimation and conditioning before sale, ensuring that our customers' new corals have the best possible chance of thriving.
When corals and fish arrive at our stores after a long, stressful journey, many hobbyists may not possess the necessary expertise to provide the specialized care they require. That's where our experience and expertise as local fish store owners become invaluable. We have a unique opportunity to make a positive impact on the lives of these animals and the success of our customers' aquariums.
Selling corals, especially sensitive species like Acropora, directly out of the bag without proper acclimation and care completely goes against the principles of responsible animal husbandry. It's also contrary to the mission statement of BAR, which emphasizes our commitment to promoting sustainable and compassionate practices in the reef-keeping community.
Besides, this approach is consistent with other pet industries, where reputable breeders and sellers prioritize the health and welfare of the animals they sell. By adopting this mindset, we can build trust with our customers, promote a positive reputation for our industry, and contribute to a more sustainable and compassionate reefing. We don’t buy newborn puppies straight from the breeder. Neither should we buy corals straight out of the bag where they were raised in the ocean half a world away.
Ultimately, our goal should be to prioritize the well-being of the animals in our care and ensure that they receive the best possible treatment, from the moment they arrive at our stores to their new homes with our customers.
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