Alex’s IM 150 EXT

Alexander1312 said:
Thank you, Patrick. Only Day 1 after my return so I have not tried out the Tunze yet, but planning to do it ASAP. The only logistical issue with this is that both vertically oriented gyres I am using are sleeping places for a couple of fishes, so I feel bad removing one of them for now and replacing it with the Tunze - will still do that though.

Re PH - great, for both tanks, but still is - EXCEPT - last night when I cleaned the glass ORP rose dramatically and PH decreased dramatically at the same time until later today when both normalized. I am not sure what caused both probes to act up (PH was down to 7.5 this morning)?
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You and your family polluted the air with your respiration.
 
derek_SR said:
Your PH drops after your family returns from vacation, reflected by 2 different probes, and you are inclined to think it's because (both) probes are suddenly acting up?
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If my PH drops to 7.5 when the three of us (we left one child back in Germany :)..) come back and keep all windows open so that CO2 stays around 490 ppm, then I have a bigger problem. So yes I am inclined to think there is another reason for the drop than slightly elevated ambient CO2 levels changing from 420 pre to 490 after returning.

However, I agree with you that this might not be a probe measurement error, given the inverse relationship of ORP and PH, having two different probes measuring different things, and ORP signaling a stronger oxidizing environment within the tank.

I believe that removing a ton of algae from the glass suddenly could have created this environment (think inside the box vs. outside).
 
under_water_ninja said:
Your tang will be ready July 1st buddy! He’s very active and very healthy! Growing the damaged fins back as well! He is a bully, lol. Think he killed a couple anthias I had in qt for @Darkxerox , they had barb wounds on them, so your getting charged extra, lol
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Fantastic news Kenny - thanks for letting me know! Sounds like she back to her old self haha. Will connect for pick up.
 
Alexander1312 said:
If my PH drops to 7.5 when the three of us (we left one child back in Germany :)..) come back and keep all windows open so that CO2 stays around 490 ppm, then I have a bigger problem. So yes I am inclined to think there is another reason for the drop than slightly elevated ambient CO2 levels changing from 420 pre to 490 after returning.

However, I agree with you that this might not be a probe measurement error, given the inverse relationship of ORP and PH, having two different probes measuring different things, and ORP signaling a stronger oxidizing environment within the tank.

I believe that removing a ton of algae from the glass suddenly could have created this environment (think inside the box vs. outside).
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I actually just returned to my tank yesterday, though was not gone nearly as long. I scraped algae and didn't see any PH drop, though I only have one probe and don't trust it a whole lot anyway.

Remember that scientifically - PH is a function of CO2 and alkalinity. That's it, period. BUT that doesn't mean there aren't factors inside the box (to your point) that move CO2 or Alkalinity independent of the CO2 in the surrounding air. But that must be what happened here one way or another (movement in Co2). And in my experience with my tank, 99.9999% of the time this is associated with the CO2 in the air around the tank rather than some mysterious factor inside of it.

I do agree that seems like a large drop in PH related to a small increase per your CO2 monitor. But I remain skeptical of both PH probes AND co2 monitors so who really knows...
 
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under_water_ninja said:
Your tang will be ready July 1st buddy! He’s very active and very healthy! Growing the damaged fins back as well! He is a bully, lol. Think he killed a couple anthias I had in qt for @Darkxerox , they had barb wounds on them, so your getting charged extra, lol
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When your fish is out of the pen:

1750444314673.png


Should have 4 tears actually...
 
derek_SR said:
I actually just returned to my tank yesterday, though was not gone nearly as long. I scraped algae and didn't see any PH drop, though I only have one probe and don't trust it a whole lot anyway.

Remember that scientifically - PH is a function of CO2 and alkalinity. That's it, period. BUT that doesn't mean there aren't factors inside the box (to your point) that move CO2 or Alkalinity independent of the CO2 in the surrounding air. But that must be what happened here one way or another (movement in Co2). And in my experience with my tank, 99.9999% of the time this is associated with the CO2 in the air around the tank rather than some mysterious factor inside of it.

I do agree that seems like a large drop in PH related to a small increase per your CO2 monitor. But I remain skeptical of both PH probes AND co2 monitors so who really knows...
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Yes, we need to think broader than just these basic mechanics of PH impacted by alk and ambient CO2. Bacteria on (often massive) surfaces inside the tank might contribute equally or more to high CO2 levels inside the water, in some tanks. I believe mine has excessive bacteria depots from heavy PNS Pro bio dosing early on (plus heavy Kalkwasser potentially) and would probably benefit signficantly from a full replacement of all rocks + sand. This is what I did in the nano tank and have not had a big PH issue since I did this as a result - with the same alk levels and same CO2 and same PH probes with the same calibration I am getting different PH between the two tanks since rocks (and sand) had been replaced.

I know you and Randy mean well, and I am not disputing the significant impact of ambient CO2 (and alk) on what determines the PH - plus the reliance on hobby grade measurement equipment - but we have to allow for other thoughts on contributing factors and not just referencing tables of theoretical relationships what happens in an empty glass box.
 
Alexander1312 said:
Yes, we need to think broader than just these basic mechanics of PH impacted by alk and ambient CO2. Bacteria on (often massive) surfaces inside the tank might contribute equally or more to high CO2 levels inside the water, in some tanks. I believe mine has excessive bacteria depots from heavy PNS Pro bio dosing early on (plus heavy Kalkwasser potentially) and would probably benefit signficantly from a full replacement of all rocks + sand. This is what I did in the nano tank and have not had a big PH issue since I did this as a result - with the same alk levels and same CO2 and same PH probes with the same calibration I am getting different PH between the two tanks since rocks (and sand) had been replaced.

I know you and Randy mean well, and I am not disputing the significant impact of ambient CO2 (and alk) on what determines the PH - plus the reliance on hobby grade measurement equipment - but we have to allow for other thoughts on contributing factors and not just referencing tables of theoretical relationships what happens in an empty glass box.
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It's not "theoretical" that PH is a function of CO2/Alkalinity - it's a simple fact.

You are not wrong that there's a LOT we don't understand about what is going on in our tanks. Certainly this is the case. But it seems silly to me to totally discount the few things that we DO know about what is going on, especially when it is likely the most plausible explanation. That's all I'm saying.
 
I think I hear you @derek_SR & @RandyC If you hear hooves, think horses, not zebras. Common first then move to exotic.

I don't know much about ph probes besides hearing they need lots of calibration and have a decent +/- error rate... Could the simple fact that debris from scrapping the glass impacted the ph reading because of the physical debris? You mentioned the layer on the glass was substantial. I assume that's why it effected the orp (another probe I have no experience with).
 
Patio said:
I think I hear you @derek_SR & @RandyC If you hear hooves, think horses, not zebras. Common first then move to exotic.

I don't know much about ph probes besides hearing they need lots of calibration and have a decent +/- error rate... Could the simple fact that debris from scrapping the glass impacted the ph reading because of the physical debris? You mentioned the layer on the glass was substantial. I assume that's why it effected the orp (another probe I have no experience with).
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Yes, but this is not what I am saying - more like - when you hear hooves, don’t always bet on horses. There is an impact on PH in our colder months (I do not call them winter since I lived in Chicago and Germany previously), which can be observed (due to high ambient CO2) and which makes sense. Same as low alkalinity (to some extent).

But some PH development cannot be explained by ambient CO2 only, which is what both are insisting on is the 99.9% explanation or 'simple fact' (rather simplistic vs simple IMO) and which I disagree with as they are missing the significant component which are the surface areas in our tanks - and this is not a Zebra but rather a Thoroughbred.
 
I understand. I don’t disagree with you or them.

I do still wonder if a ph probe gives wonky readings when large amounts of debris are flowing around it like after scraping algae. I just don’t know enough about how they generate a reading and if debris can change the reading.
 
Patio said:
I understand. I don’t disagree with you or them.

I do still wonder if a ph probe gives wonky readings when large amounts of debris are flowing around it like after scraping algae. I just don’t know enough about how they generate a reading and if debris can change the reading.
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Yes, that was my first thought that the probes were overwhelmed by the particles, but the same effect happened again without glass cleaning. Btw, PH is now almost better with all of us at home haha.

IMG_7702.jpeg
 
psidriven said:
Cool find with the full plastic net. How flexible, tough is it?
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That's a good point. It is flexible but admittedly not of great quality. I was just happy to find one, but I now think that I should have bought two of them. Hopefully, it will last until next year, when we will be going back again.
 
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