Your PH drops after your family returns from vacation, reflected by 2 different probes, and you are inclined to think it's because (both) probes are suddenly acting up?
Alex’s IM 150 EXT
- Thread starter Alexander1312
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Your tang will be ready July 1st buddy! He’s very active and very healthy! Growing the damaged fins back as well! He is a bully, lol. Think he killed a couple anthias I had in qt for @Darkxerox , they had barb wounds on them, so your getting charged extra, lol
Alexander1312
Supporting Member
If my PH drops to 7.5 when the three of us (we left one child back in Germany
..) come back and keep all windows open so that CO2 stays around 490 ppm, then I have a bigger problem. So yes I am inclined to think there is another reason for the drop than slightly elevated ambient CO2 levels changing from 420 pre to 490 after returning. However, I agree with you that this might not be a probe measurement error, given the inverse relationship of ORP and PH, having two different probes measuring different things, and ORP signaling a stronger oxidizing environment within the tank.
I believe that removing a ton of algae from the glass suddenly could have created this environment (think inside the box vs. outside).
Alexander1312
Supporting Member
Fantastic news Kenny - thanks for letting me know! Sounds like she back to her old self haha. Will connect for pick up.
I actually just returned to my tank yesterday, though was not gone nearly as long. I scraped algae and didn't see any PH drop, though I only have one probe and don't trust it a whole lot anyway.If my PH drops to 7.5 when the three of us (we left one child back in Germany
However, I agree with you that this might not be a probe measurement error, given the inverse relationship of ORP and PH, having two different probes measuring different things, and ORP signaling a stronger oxidizing environment within the tank.
I believe that removing a ton of algae from the glass suddenly could have created this environment (think inside the box vs. outside).
Remember that scientifically - PH is a function of CO2 and alkalinity. That's it, period. BUT that doesn't mean there aren't factors inside the box (to your point) that move CO2 or Alkalinity independent of the CO2 in the surrounding air. But that must be what happened here one way or another (movement in Co2). And in my experience with my tank, 99.9999% of the time this is associated with the CO2 in the air around the tank rather than some mysterious factor inside of it.
I do agree that seems like a large drop in PH related to a small increase per your CO2 monitor. But I remain skeptical of both PH probes AND co2 monitors so who really knows...
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Alexander1312
Supporting Member
Yes, we need to think broader than just these basic mechanics of PH impacted by alk and ambient CO2. Bacteria on (often massive) surfaces inside the tank might contribute equally or more to high CO2 levels inside the water, in some tanks. I believe mine has excessive bacteria depots from heavy PNS Pro bio dosing early on (plus heavy Kalkwasser potentially) and would probably benefit signficantly from a full replacement of all rocks + sand. This is what I did in the nano tank and have not had a big PH issue since I did this as a result - with the same alk levels and same CO2 and same PH probes with the same calibration I am getting different PH between the two tanks since rocks (and sand) had been replaced.
I know you and Randy mean well, and I am not disputing the significant impact of ambient CO2 (and alk) on what determines the PH - plus the reliance on hobby grade measurement equipment - but we have to allow for other thoughts on contributing factors and not just referencing tables of theoretical relationships what happens in an empty glass box.
It's not "theoretical" that PH is a function of CO2/Alkalinity - it's a simple fact.
You are not wrong that there's a LOT we don't understand about what is going on in our tanks. Certainly this is the case. But it seems silly to me to totally discount the few things that we DO know about what is going on, especially when it is likely the most plausible explanation. That's all I'm saying.
Patio
Supporting Member
I think I hear you @derek_SR & @RandyC If you hear hooves, think horses, not zebras. Common first then move to exotic.
I don't know much about ph probes besides hearing they need lots of calibration and have a decent +/- error rate... Could the simple fact that debris from scrapping the glass impacted the ph reading because of the physical debris? You mentioned the layer on the glass was substantial. I assume that's why it effected the orp (another probe I have no experience with).
I don't know much about ph probes besides hearing they need lots of calibration and have a decent +/- error rate... Could the simple fact that debris from scrapping the glass impacted the ph reading because of the physical debris? You mentioned the layer on the glass was substantial. I assume that's why it effected the orp (another probe I have no experience with).
Alexander1312
Supporting Member
Yes, but this is not what I am saying - more like - when you hear hooves, don’t always bet on horses. There is an impact on PH in our colder months (I do not call them winter since I lived in Chicago and Germany previously), which can be observed (due to high ambient CO2) and which makes sense. Same as low alkalinity (to some extent).
But some PH development cannot be explained by ambient CO2 only, which is what both are insisting on is the 99.9% explanation or 'simple fact' (rather simplistic vs simple IMO) and which I disagree with as they are missing the significant component which are the surface areas in our tanks - and this is not a Zebra but rather a Thoroughbred.
Patio
Supporting Member
I understand. I don’t disagree with you or them.
I do still wonder if a ph probe gives wonky readings when large amounts of debris are flowing around it like after scraping algae. I just don’t know enough about how they generate a reading and if debris can change the reading.
I do still wonder if a ph probe gives wonky readings when large amounts of debris are flowing around it like after scraping algae. I just don’t know enough about how they generate a reading and if debris can change the reading.
Alexander1312
Supporting Member
Yes, that was my first thought that the probes were overwhelmed by the particles, but the same effect happened again without glass cleaning. Btw, PH is now almost better with all of us at home haha.
Alexander1312
Supporting Member
That's a good point. It is flexible but admittedly not of great quality. I was just happy to find one, but I now think that I should have bought two of them. Hopefully, it will last until next year, when we will be going back again.
Alexander1312
Supporting Member
RedSea ATO refilled a lot this morning (I had to manually stop it at one point), but the app showed no refill since yesterday, and water level just above the desired level, while the actual water level was far above what I am aiming for.
I was anyway planning to replace this ATO with the Hydros ATO which I had used during vacation as a backup ATO to refill the main ATO container with a 16 gallon BRUTE container. This worked very well over the past 2.5 weeks.
This motivated me now despite the swap and other stuff to replace it. My ATO container is very tall and hard to reach the bottom to connect the tiny pump suction cups with the container, but it worked (much better solution than the RedSea). The magnet for the Hydros sensor is very flimsy, so I tried the 20 different magnets and most suprisingly did not work (opposite end), but I found one which is stronger. I have also used zipties to keep the cable in place at two different points and will do the same with the hose.
For those who read along, I will be giving the RedSea ATO away for free, if anyone is interested - it might just need to be reset, but I am done with RedSea. Reach out if you want it - preference (in case of multiple interestes) to Board members, regular swap volunteers, supporting members (in this order).
I was anyway planning to replace this ATO with the Hydros ATO which I had used during vacation as a backup ATO to refill the main ATO container with a 16 gallon BRUTE container. This worked very well over the past 2.5 weeks.
This motivated me now despite the swap and other stuff to replace it. My ATO container is very tall and hard to reach the bottom to connect the tiny pump suction cups with the container, but it worked (much better solution than the RedSea). The magnet for the Hydros sensor is very flimsy, so I tried the 20 different magnets and most suprisingly did not work (opposite end), but I found one which is stronger. I have also used zipties to keep the cable in place at two different points and will do the same with the hose.
For those who read along, I will be giving the RedSea ATO away for free, if anyone is interested - it might just need to be reset, but I am done with RedSea. Reach out if you want it - preference (in case of multiple interestes) to Board members, regular swap volunteers, supporting members (in this order).
MarcosD
Supporting Member
You might’ve mentioned this above but which Hydros ATO did you switch to? The Triple Optical Sensor version?
Alexander1312
Supporting Member
Yes, correct.
MarcosD
Supporting Member
Glad to hear you like it. I have two waiting to setup for both my tanks. Needed to order the sense/drive cable extensions and finally got them in but have been lazy to setup
Alexander1312
Supporting Member
Same here - maybe I should thank RedSea that their ATO sucked so much that I was ultimately forced to do it. Next will be my frag tank where I replace the supper annoying (although reliable) Tunze ATO (old version).
