Neptune Aquatics

Algae scrubbers vs refugium: DIY, pros/cons?

IOnceWasLegend

IOnceWasLegend

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I'm starting to plan out nutrient control and sump layout in a new build, but I'm waffling back and forth between these two options. So, two questions:

1. People who have used both: what were the pros and cons? My understanding is scrubbers are more effective at nutrient removal but require more maintenance; but curious about your experiences.

2. Anybody have a good DIY for a larger scrubber? I think the main thing stopping me from going this route is just how expensive they are for what's effectively a light mounted to an acrylic box, so I feel like I have to be missing something.

Thanks!
 
IOnceWasLegend said:
I'm starting to plan out nutrient control and sump layout in a new build, but I'm waffling back and forth between these two options. So, two questions:

1. People who have used both: what were the pros and cons? My understanding is scrubbers are more effective at nutrient removal but require more maintenance; but curious about your experiences.

2. Anybody have a good DIY for a larger scrubber? I think the main thing stopping me from going this route is just how expensive they are for what's effectively a light mounted to an acrylic box, so I feel like I have to be missing something.

Thanks!
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I’ve always been a fan of an external fuge with chaeto. Great at nutrient control (I can get it down to zero nitrates and phosphates if I really wanted to), but it’s a great place for pods and other life that you don’t want fish eating all the time. You can also control light bleed much better than when your fuge is in the sump and if you want to clean it, you can just take the whole thing out. Plus it adds water volume to the tank too, the bigger the better!

https://www.bareefers.org/forum/threads/randy’s-innovative-marine-75-ext.32907/post-472626

62FC0E54-342E-44F0-867F-D95E27B4466A.jpeg
 
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My first experience with a scrubber was just a crafting mesh zip tied to a length of pvc pipe that I cut a slit into and used household bulbs on both sides and it was fed by a maxi jet pump. Total cost was $40. I hung it over a chamber in my sump.

Not pretty but very effective.

I have also seen an algae scrubber that was a shallow reservoir that would tilt and dump into the sump when it filled to a certain level. It almost looked like a paint roller tray. Seemed to work really well but it was noisy and likely increased salt creep.

You nailed the basics though. One is super cheap and low maintenance but less efficient.
 
I’ve ran both over the years. Here’s the pros and cons for me.
Fuge, pro. It’s easy to harvest, grows microorganisms . Con. Grows junk also, takes up lots of real estate.
Scrubber. Pro. It’s small and compact, doesn’t grow junk on it. Well only at the beginning. Con. I diy two sizes. A 12” wide that fit into my sink and a18” wide that didn’t. The 18” one made a mess when I had to clean it. That got old really quick. Oh very little pods for me.
 
grizfyrfyter said:
My first experience with a scrubber was just a crafting mesh zip tied to a length of pvc pipe that I cut a slit into and used household bulbs on both sides and it was fed by a maxi jet pump. Total cost was $40. I hung it over a chamber in my sump.

Not pretty but very effective.

I have also seen an algae scrubber that was a shallow reservoir that would tilt and dump into the sump when it filled to a certain level. It almost looked like a paint roller tray. Seemed to work really well but it was noisy and likely increased salt creep.

You nailed the basics though. One is super cheap and low maintenance but less efficient.
Click to expand...
Eh, I wish I did that. Instead I was an idiot and paid over $300 for a Santa Monica Rain2 ATS which is .... a PVC tube with a slit in it and a screen that hangs off it, also fed by a maxijet. The only thing it offers beyond DIY is that it is enclosed in a light proof box and has waterproof red LEDs.

That RAIN2 has produced exactly ZERO algae in the three or so years that I've half heartedly run it.

I like the external refugium idea and here's a thought ... you can just put screens in the refugium and grow algae there instead of macro algae?

BTW, you can use this as the screen if you DIY (https://www.amazon.com/Plastic-Embr...argid=pla-969687338777&psc=1&region_id=674469)
It's either called "Plastic mesh canvas" or "Knitting screen".

So yeah, somethings are worth trying to DIY first and IMHO an algae scrubber is definitely one of them. With the RAIN 2, I noticed the end cap of the PVC wasn't very well made so I had to take a file and fix it to fit better so water didn't just leak out the front of the tube instead of falling down the screen.

I might have to go fiddle with it's lights to get it to work. I KNOW my tank can grow hair algae, it's just not doing it where I want!!


Having said all that, I had good success on my old 58g tank and sump with a giant chaeto ball in the sump, and as I said, my RAIN 2 ATS does nothing, but I'm thinking I'm either not running it correctly as I've seen photos of other people's RAIN2 working well, or I'd have been better off DIY my own (which I won't since I spent the money on this stupid thing).


V
 
Vincerama2 said:
Eh, I wish I did that. Instead I was an idiot and paid over $300 for a Santa Monica Rain2 ATS which is .... a PVC tube with a slit in it and a screen that hangs off it, also fed by a maxijet. The only thing it offers beyond DIY is that it is enclosed in a light proof box and has waterproof red LEDs.

That RAIN2 has produced exactly ZERO algae in the three or so years that I've half heartedly run it.

I like the external refugium idea and here's a thought ... you can just put screens in the refugium and grow algae there instead of macro algae?

BTW, you can use this as the screen if you DIY (https://www.amazon.com/Plastic-Embr...argid=pla-969687338777&psc=1&region_id=674469)
It's either called "Plastic mesh canvas" or "Knitting screen".

So yeah, somethings are worth trying to DIY first and IMHO an algae scrubber is definitely one of them. With the RAIN 2, I noticed the end cap of the PVC wasn't very well made so I had to take a file and fix it to fit better so water didn't just leak out the front of the tube instead of falling down the screen.

I might have to go fiddle with it's lights to get it to work. I KNOW my tank can grow hair algae, it's just not doing it where I want!!


Having said all that, I had good success on my old 58g tank and sump with a giant chaeto ball in the sump, and as I said, my RAIN 2 ATS does nothing, but I'm thinking I'm either not running it correctly as I've seen photos of other people's RAIN2 working well, or I'd have been better off DIY my own (which I won't since I spent the money on this stupid thing).


V
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I had great success with the chaeto refugium using an H380 in my now-defunct RSR250 as well. I'll probably end up going with that approach again after everyone's responses; but a big appeal of the algae scrubber (and why I keep coming back to it even though I know it'd be more of a PITA) is the ability to then use the refugium chamber as an in-system frag tank.
 
I used the santa monica rain2 successfully in terms of it growing turf algae on a 30g total volume and 85ish total volume system. Success in other regards, i don't know? I don't really measure nutrients. I no longer run the scrubber in hopes that more algae grows in the display for my herbivores to quickly eat up (I dont even know if that idea is a good one).

In early 2000s i ran cheato and store bought clams in the sump of a 60g total volume for 3 years. I did not measure nitrate or phosphate much back then either so I cant speak to its benefit in regards to nutrients.

lol basically i have no real value to add to the conversation other than algae grew for me with the Rain2 (sometimes not on the screen if the light was too intense). I will add that it took me a while to dial in and learn how to adjust and maintain.

I am in no way suggesting someone should not test their own nutrients.

IMG_2551.jpg
 
IOnceWasLegend said:
I had great success with the chaeto refugium using an H380 in my now-defunct RSR250 as well. I'll probably end up going with that approach again after everyone's responses; but a big appeal of the algae scrubber (and why I keep coming back to it even though I know it'd be more of a PITA) is the ability to then use the refugium chamber as an in-system frag tank.
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If anything, sizing is critical for both systems. A too small fuge isn't going to do much as a microcrustacean habitat or nutrient export. The light you have at least is a monster so you can have a pretty large refugium or frag area. If nutrient control is your goal, then I think you should plan and size around that first. Plus factor in time for maintenance of each system. Afterwards, anything else is just a bonus.
 
I’ve mainly did refuges in the past. Same as others. Worked great. Simple. Than like others. Did the scrubber. Same again. Liked that it freed up space. Like a refuge in steroids. Grew all kinds of randomness. Currently running the icecap internal algae scrubber pro. Thinking of removing it due to rolling mat taking care of most these days. Less algae growth lately.
To sum it up. If you want simple. Stick to refuge. If you want to take that space back. Use a turf scrubber.
 
Presumably you mean Chaeto growing in a fuge.
I have been running an Algae Turf scrubber for about 15 years now.
I have also tried Chaeto and Carbon dosing.

Like above : An ATS is really Chaeto on steroids.
Plus, you do not have the problem of poor tumble/flow and hair algae clogging and killing your chaeto.
On the other hand, it is hard to buy a good ATS, and often harder to make one.

I do still really like my ATS.
It is VERY good at reducing Nitrates. Sometimes too good. Yes, you can starve corals.
It is GOOD/BAD at reducing Phosphates. It reduces phosphates at a fixed ratio with nitrate. So depending on what you feed,
it is possible to have either high or low phosphates.
Mine is DIY, and I have gone through several generations.
Big thread here on the build. Start on this page for the final part.
http://algaescrubber.net/forums/showthread.php?2545-Generation-4-ATS-build/page5&highlight=rygh

I would avoid Santa Monica ATS systems.

This guy does nice proper waterfall scrubbers.
https://www.turbosaquatics.com
 
rygh said:
I would avoid Santa Monica ATS systems.
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Yeah, I fell for it and found myself with an expensive L shaped piece of pvc pipe, you can see in Patio's photo what it is. It does have some LED light in the housing, but I just checked mine and one set of lights is dead, and another is so dim it provide no light. It still has two lights in that work. But that's lame that the lights should just burn out.
 
Great thread. I've debated one and glad to see my "wait, how expensive and how much work?!?!" feelings aren't unique. I have friends that seem to swear by them though.

Aren't the good turf scrubbers very high power lights? What's the relative cost of running the ATS vs fuge?

Feels like if the goal is pods, answer seems to be fuge. If the goal is nutrients, the N+P answer is probably skimmer + maybe a roller. If the goal is N and some P, the ATS vs fuge turns into that space vs $$$ question.
 
richiev said:
Great thread. I've debated one and glad to see my "wait, how expensive and how much work?!?!" feelings aren't unique. I have friends that seem to swear by them though.

Aren't the good turf scrubbers very high power lights? What's the relative cost of running the ATS vs fuge?

Feels like if the goal is pods, answer seems to be fuge. If the goal is nutrients, the N+P answer is probably skimmer + maybe a roller. If the goal is N and some P, the ATS vs fuge turns into that space vs $$$ question.
Click to expand...

I think, at the end of the day, they both work; it's just a matter of preference. In regards to "good turf scrubbers high-powered lights", I'd bet the answer is 'yes'. BRS did a good series where they tested several different lights on nutrient control and macroalgae (chaeto) growth in a test environment and in a more realistic setup; one of the points they made is that it's unrealistic to spend thousands on lighting a display, then expect smaller/weaker lights to outcompete that in a refugium.

I've appreciated the discussion from everyone, though! As much as I'd like the mini frag tank idea, I think the hassle/maintenance of a scrubber is pushing me towards the refugium option.
 
Check out Four Square Aquatics for something built much better than the Santa Monica basic stuff. Seems like the ferrari and the gentleman that owns it is documents a lot of his usage/results... and is a cool dude.

www.foursquareaquatics.com

Foursquare Aquatics

www.foursquareaquatics.com www.foursquareaquatics.com
 
Oi
IOnceWasLegend said:
I think, at the end of the day, they both work; it's just a matter of preference. In regards to "good turf scrubbers high-powered lights", I'd bet the answer is 'yes'. BRS did a good series where they tested several different lights on nutrient control and macroalgae (chaeto) growth in a test environment and in a more realistic setup; one of the points they made is that it's unrealistic to spend thousands on lighting a display, then expect smaller/weaker lights to outcompete that in a refugium.

I've appreciated the discussion from everyone, though! As much as I'd like the mini frag tank idea, I think the hassle/maintenance of a scrubber is pushing me towards the refugium option.
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Isn't the counter to that going to again be the tank doesn't lose algae because the fuge is there, it loses it because things eat it? The turf scrubber for instance is like constantly dosing hair algae and such into your tank.
 
richiev said:
Oi

Isn't the counter to that going to again be the tank doesn't lose algae because the fuge is there, it loses it because things eat it? The turf scrubber for instance is like constantly dosing hair algae and such into your tank.
Click to expand...
In the experiment they ran it seemed like they had no CUC in the "display", so it was just "lighting both display and refugium with light, doing this with several different lights, and seeing which one grew more nuisance algae in the display". So, determining if a refugium could out-compete nuisance algae/prevent it from taking root.

The "dosing hair algae/etc" into the tank is another part of why I'm likely going to shy away from the scrubber. Cool idea, love it, but more maintenance + more moving parts when I'm trying to keep everything simple.
 
richiev said:
...

Aren't the good turf scrubbers very high power lights? What's the relative cost of running the ATS vs fuge?
Click to expand...
No, actually pretty low.
A good one will have the right grow light combo of red + blue.
And the LEDs are only about 3" from the screen.
It ends up being very efficient.

My ATS lights (for a 250G pretty fish heavy tank) is 36 Watts, and on about 30% of the time.
 
richiev said:
Oi

Isn't the counter to that going to again be the tank doesn't lose algae because the fuge is there, it loses it because things eat it? The turf scrubber for instance is like constantly dosing hair algae and such into your tank.
Click to expand...
A little, yes.
I get a fair bit of detritus buildup in the part of the sump with the ATS. Never really cared. Easy to siphon.
 
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