Reef nutrition

Andrew's Red Sea Reefer 250

PizzaOven said:
I turned up the MP-40s a tad, removed as much cyano as I could, and covered the tank for a 3-day blackout. I'm hoping the combination of increased flow, reduced feeding, and 3 days of complete darkness will solve the problem. I turned off all dosers, except kalk to keep pH from dropping too low. I'll monitor Alk and adjust the kalk amount as needed to keep it from going too high.

Anyone ever connect a cannister filter to a gravel vacuum? This way I can vacuum as much as I want without worrying about draining too much water.
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I covered the tank with contractors' paper and towels to prevent any ambient light from getting through.
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I'll do a large water change once it's finished...
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Glad you're going with blackout and vacuuming method! The Reef Beef trick was using the Marineland canister filter which is similar to what you did (yours is pretty interesting though). Hopefully this works out for you. Let us know if the skimmate changes.
 
Darkxerox said:
Glad you're going with blackout and vacuuming method! The Reef Beef trick was using the Marineland canister filter which is similar to what you did (yours is pretty interesting though). Hopefully this works out for you. Let us know if the skimmate changes.
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I'll keep an eye on the skimmate. I guess it should start turning red when the cyano dies off? I read that in an ancient reef central post.
 
Just finished the blackout and turned the lights back on. Things definitely look better. I probably could have done a better job w/ manual removal before the blackout, but I'm pretty happy with the results. I noticed a lot more skimmate than usual, which I guess is due to the breakdown of dying algae/cyano. pH dropped from 8.45 to 8.35 and Alk held steady at ~9 dKH.

I've also made some adjustments per suggestions from other members (thanks for the help!):
  • Increased flow on both MP-40s to 35% (Reef Crest mode). I'll turn them up more next week if the softies/LPS can handle it.
  • Plan to reduce feeding going forward
  • Cleaned out detritus from sump (there was a lot!)
  • Reduced photoperiod from 10 hours to 8 hours (includes ramp on/off).
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Just got my ICP test back from Triton. No major imbalances.

Useful information I got from this test:
  • Iodine was measured on the lower end of the target range at 38 ug/l, so I dosed 1.5mL (3000 ppm I solution) to bring it up to 60ug/l.
  • Fluoride was measured a bit low at 0.81 mg/l (vs. recommended 1.3 mg/l), but I don't have this supplement, so I can't fix it right now.
  • Interestingly, my Lithium is down to 222 ug/l (vs 1000+ from previous measurements). I suspect switching my Mg supplement from Kent Tech-M to Fritz RPM made the difference. Apparently, the old Tech-M formula contained Lithium.
I really wish ICP labs would publish uncertainty ranges. I suspect they don't because either:
  1. Companies feel it is too much work to do the analysis, with little expected return from customers.
  2. Error bars are larger than we expect.
If anyone knows of a lab that does provide error bars, or a reason they don't, please let me know!
 

Attachments

  • RSR250 - January 30, 2025 (B-lgvxLO).pdf
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Nice results. The only add I have is that Vanadium, Zinc and Nickel should not be 0, which is one of the concerns I have with Tritons reporting. Some are ok to be 0 like Fe, Mn in some cases, Co, Cr, but not these as they are more relevant. Molybdenum can also be higher.

Re errors, are you saying that they should publish the likelihood of the values to be significantly off from the real values? So this will probably never happen for a multitude of reasons, primarily commercial ones, but also these bars might be as off as the errors they are trying to depict given how ICP results are being generated. Also, many people are already overwhelmed with all the data point they are receiving. So simplification of reporting is a key objective for many of them - which is why Triton’s looks so simple and clean to read (but it is too simple for my taste).
 
Nice results. The only addition I have is that Vanadium, Zinc, and Nickel should not be 0, which is one of the concerns I have with Tritons reporting. Some are ok to be 0 like Fe, Mn in some cases, Co, Cr, but not these as they are more relevant. Molybdenum can also be higher.

Re errors, are you saying that they should publish the likelihood of the values to be significantly off from the real values? So this will probably never happen for a multitude of reasons, primarily commercial ones, but also these bars might be as off as the errors they are trying to depict given how ICP results are being generated. Also, many people are already overwhelmed with all the data points they are receiving. So simplification of reporting is a key objective for many of them - which is why Triton’s looks so simple and clean to read (but it is too simple for my taste).
 
Alexander1312 said:
Nice results. The only add I have is that Vanadium, Zinc and Nickel should not be 0, which is one of the concerns I have with Tritons reporting. Some are ok to be 0 like Fe, Mn in some cases, Co, Cr, but not these as they are more relevant. Molybdenum can also be higher.
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Interesting! Maybe I'll start experimenting with trace elements to see how it impacts my corals. I may bug you for advice with some of these :)
Alexander1312 said:
Re errors, are you saying that they should publish the likelihood of the values to be significantly off from the real values? So this will probably never happen for a multitude of reasons, primarily commercial ones, but also these bars might be as off as the errors they are trying to depict given how ICP results are being generated. Also, many people are already overwhelmed with all the data point they are receiving. So simplification of reporting is a key objective for many of them - which is why Triton’s looks so simple and clean to read (but it is too simple for my taste).
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By error bars, I mean precision. If Triton makes 100 measurements of the same water sample, what is the spread (high, low, standard deviation) of each measurement? I assume they calibrate the machines with known concentration samples, so the measurements should be centered on the true values (?). Why is precision important to me? Take Iodine as an example. Triton measured my value to be 38 ug/l (target value is 60 ug/l). What if the measurement error is +/- 30 ug/l? I wouldn't have dosed any Iodine, since it's possible my true value is perfectly fine. I'm being extreme here to illustrate the point, hopefully the error bars aren't that high. I can definitely appreciate your point about "data overload," and many hobbyists may not care. For me, error bars would give me confidence on which values I want to tweak, and which ones to leave alone.
 
PizzaOven said:
Interesting! Maybe I'll start experimenting with trace elements to see how it impacts my corals. I may bug you for advice with some of these :)

By error bars, I mean precision. If Triton makes 100 measurements of the same water sample, what is the spread (high, low, standard deviation) of each measurement? I assume they calibrate the machines with known concentration samples, so the measurements should be centered on the true values (?). Why is precision important to me? Take Iodine as an example. Triton measured my value to be 38 ug/l (target value is 60 ug/l). What if the measurement error is +/- 30 ug/l? I wouldn't have dosed any Iodine, since it's possible my true value is perfectly fine. I'm being extreme here to illustrate the point, hopefully the error bars aren't that high. I can definitely appreciate your point about "data overload," and many hobbyists may not care. For me, error bars would give me confidence on which values I want to tweak, and which ones to leave alone.
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Feel free to reach out anytime. My journal also has several thoughts on traces and their desired values. I like this stuff and it did improve significantly what I was doing previously.

Agree on your concerns about the level of precision, specifically on those ug/l measured elements. There is so much that can go wrong in an ICP test that you need to trust the provider you spend your money with. There is another thread here where I shared that Claude / Fauna Marin gave me an impromptu tour of his lab when I was in Germany last year, and there a ton of steps in the process that if done wrong can significantly impact the test results - cleaning frequency is a key part of this. Fauna Marin’s report is very specific about which ones you should care about and which ones should be left alone.
 
I did some preventative maintenance today. My 2x100W Eheim heaters were getting pretty old (3-4 years), so I decided to replace them. I went with these Hygger titanium heaters. They are smaller than my Eheim heaters, which saves a little bit of space in my sump.

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I also picked up Isol8 MT, since my last ICP showed trace elements bottomed out. I'll do the prescribed dosage for 10 days (2x drops per day) and do another ICP test to figure out further dosage.
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PizzaOven said:
I did some preventative maintenance today. My 2x100W Eheim heaters were getting pretty old (3-4 years), so I decided to replace them. I went with these Hygger titanium heaters. They are smaller than my Eheim heaters, which saves a little bit of space in my sump.

View attachment 65881

I also picked up Isol8 MT, since my last ICP showed trace elements bottomed out. I'll do the prescribed dosage for 10 days (2x drops per day) and do another ICP test to figure out further dosage.
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Only dose about a quarter of what it says to dose. It is made for heavy refugium use in a fully stocked tank. Dosing the full amount will significantly elevate iodine, and potentially other traces.
 
PizzaOven said:
Thanks for the advice. OK, I'll start with 1 drop every two days and check back with ICP in a couple of weeks.
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Also, not all traces are included in this product - only 10 are included. Fluoride e.g. is not. I suggest you reconcile what is missing with what you are adding.

Isol8 MT | Captiv8 Aquaculture

Captiv8 Aquaculture. U.S.A.-based and -produced, privately-owned by scientists.
www.captiv8aquaculture.com www.captiv8aquaculture.com
 
Alexander1312 said:
Also, not all traces are included in this product - only 10 are included. Fluoride e.g. is not. I suggest you reconcile what is missing with what you are adding.

Isol8 MT | Captiv8 Aquaculture

Captiv8 Aquaculture. U.S.A.-based and -produced, privately-owned by scientists.
www.captiv8aquaculture.com www.captiv8aquaculture.com
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I sort of figured an all in one solution like this may have issues - imbalances, missing elements, etc. If I can avoid buying and dosing individual elements, this would be ideal.
 
I think the problem is that because different organisms use different amounts of each element, and most tanks have different makeup of organisms, it's very hard to get a perfect match for consumption across multiple tanks - any product can only try to get close

I use Isol8 MT because Reef Builders studio uses it, and some people I know have had good success with it. But I still do frequent water changes because I'm aware that my tank doesn't consume nearly the amount of iodine that it supplies
 
tribbitt said:
I think the problem is that because different organisms use different amounts of each element, and most tanks have different makeup of organisms, it's very hard to get a perfect match for consumption across multiple tanks - any product can only try to get close

I use Isol8 MT because Reef Builders studio uses it, and some people I know have had good success with it. But I still do frequent water changes because I'm aware that my tank doesn't consume nearly the amount of iodine that it supplies
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I agree, it’s impossible to create a perfectly balanced solution for every tank. I’m trying this out because it’s simple. If I end up with major imbalances, I’ll try a different approach.

Great to hear your experience, and that others have success with it! What dosage do you use?
 
tribbitt said:
I think the problem is that because different organisms use different amounts of each element, and most tanks have different makeup of organisms, it's very hard to get a perfect match for consumption across multiple tanks - any product can only try to get close

I use Isol8 MT because Reef Builders studio uses it, and some people I know have had good success with it. But I still do frequent water changes because I'm aware that my tank doesn't consume nearly the amount of iodine that it supplies
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I don't really get why Chris Wood put so much iodine in the mix. Maybe he based it off Meckley's farm or something. He does sell custom TE blends though if you email him.
 
PizzaOven said:
I agree, it’s impossible to create a perfectly balanced solution for every tank. I’m trying this out because it’s simple. If I end up with major imbalances, I’ll try a different approach.

Great to hear your experience, and that others have success with it! What dosage do you use?
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I use probably too much. I do 1 drop / day, on a 20 gallon tank. But I also do 20% wc weekly, and have a lot of creatures in the tank. I have no doubt that iodine builds up, but it's removed by the wc. My thinking is I would rather have to remove extra iodine than corals get starved for other things. However, I will probably be decreasing the amount I dose in the future - I did some math and in a single week of particularly low uptake, the amount I'm dosing can build up to bad levels

The alternative I tried, chaetogro, turned cloudy eventually - and then when I dosed it, all my green corals turned black lol.

Probably a complete mind story, but anecdotally I seem to be getting much better coloration and growth with isol8. "oh it grew" became "I can see the branches lengthening each day" and a smoothskin acro I thought was supposed to be pastel green turned full-on lime green. Again, completely anecdotal and there's many factors at play, so take with a grain 35ppt of salt :p
 
tribbitt said:
I think the problem is that because different organisms use different amounts of each element, and most tanks have different makeup of organisms, it's very hard to get a perfect match for consumption across multiple tanks - any product can only try to get close

I use Isol8 MT because Reef Builders studio uses it, and some people I know have had good success with it. But I still do frequent water changes because I'm aware that my tank doesn't consume nearly the amount of iodine that it supplies
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The issue with trace element dosing is that the common belief is that more is better. More traces often lead to nice coral growth in the beginning, but create later issues similar to overfertilization. This is why I am not a fan of ESV, unless it is underdosed, which then creates an issue with the major elements Alk and CA.

Benefits of all in one solutions are often very dependent on the tank maturity. The risk from overdosing is much smaller in tanks which have a healthy coral population vs newer tanks where corals are not able to taking up elements disproportionately as they become available.

The point with MT is that it helps if applied correctly, but there is a higher risk of overdosing. Also, Fluoride and Strontium (and Sulfur) seem to be potentially important components for coral health and resistance to disease, but are both not included in this product. So if low levels of these traces is the problem, this product will not help solving it. Contrarily, if elevated levels of some of these traces are already present, it might not be a good idea to add more.
 
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