Gooby the purple firefish's fluke journal (a benefits of quarantine story)
- Thread starter richiev
- Start date
I used Dr Reef’s Quarantined Fish for my last fish buy mid last year. At the time he was highly recommended by many people. Fish were healthy and eating well and no problems with them since, which is really the only thing that matters to me. Price was very reasonable for all the value he adds.
Only issue was that he seemed pretty overwhelmed and communication was basically terrible. Like you can’t be sure if your order is placed or not for a couple months, with automated messages telling you conflicting things. He told me he was planning to hire help with the communication/admin side, but I see looking at a more recent thread on HumbleFish just now that he scaled back and there’s been a lot of drama with him at HF. So at this point I can’t recommend him until he resurfaces and starts getting good reviews again.
There are other vendors who get good reviews for supplying healthy fish, the HumbleFish forum has a list of ”approved” vendors, and there is lots of discussion there and on Reef2Reef about them. There are also vendors who say they quarantine and get good reviews but aren’t on the HF list, hard to know what to make of that.
Unfortunately this very important sub market of supplying truly quarantined/treated fish is currently confusing with lots of conflicting opinions and back/forth out there. Reminds me of the actual quarantine/treatment discussions out there ironically. What we need is a real company to take this on and hire some of these guys to help lead a team but not have to run the business, that will do things right but do them at scale with real customer service. It can’t just be left to individual strong personalities who don’t know how to do everything else needed to run a business.
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I was flipping through posts and came across this old one of mine. I just thought I'd share a quick update on Gooby and my fluke experience. The summary is he's all good and living happily in my main display tank for months.
Since I was still seeing fluke symptoms after treating with prazipro, I self-diagnosed as having prazi resistant flukes (sounds like that's becoming more prominent these days based on humble fish posts). I switched then to hyposalinity. I pulled all the inverts out, tossed them ... I can't remember where, but I guess my frag tank, and writing this is making me wonder how I was sure I didn't transfer flukes to my frag tank, hmmmmmmmmm.
Anyway, I threw on an ammonia badge, and slowly brought the tank down to ~15 ppt / 1.011 SG over a couple days. I then left it there for around a week, based on what the guidance is. Gooby made it through that and the subsequent increase with no real issues.
Months later that isolation tank somehow got ich (I believe from a reef cleaners snail order), and I'm handling that by doing copper in a quarantine tank for the 2 fish I had in there, and leaving the tank itself fallow at ~82°F (going to probably jump to 85°F to shorten that period). The copper treatment also is relatively straightforward, but hypo I feel is just easier. It's much easier to just dip a hanna salinity gauge in some fresh saltwater to see if it's at the right level then trying to prepare copper water, and worry about cleaning it all off everything after, and ...
Overall I feel like hyposalinity is pretty straightforward, and it's great it has the benefit of not just getting the flukes off the fish, but killing them out of the tank itself, without dealing with chemicals.
Since I was still seeing fluke symptoms after treating with prazipro, I self-diagnosed as having prazi resistant flukes (sounds like that's becoming more prominent these days based on humble fish posts). I switched then to hyposalinity. I pulled all the inverts out, tossed them ... I can't remember where, but I guess my frag tank, and writing this is making me wonder how I was sure I didn't transfer flukes to my frag tank, hmmmmmmmmm.
Anyway, I threw on an ammonia badge, and slowly brought the tank down to ~15 ppt / 1.011 SG over a couple days. I then left it there for around a week, based on what the guidance is. Gooby made it through that and the subsequent increase with no real issues.
Months later that isolation tank somehow got ich (I believe from a reef cleaners snail order), and I'm handling that by doing copper in a quarantine tank for the 2 fish I had in there, and leaving the tank itself fallow at ~82°F (going to probably jump to 85°F to shorten that period). The copper treatment also is relatively straightforward, but hypo I feel is just easier. It's much easier to just dip a hanna salinity gauge in some fresh saltwater to see if it's at the right level then trying to prepare copper water, and worry about cleaning it all off everything after, and ...
Overall I feel like hyposalinity is pretty straightforward, and it's great it has the benefit of not just getting the flukes off the fish, but killing them out of the tank itself, without dealing with chemicals.
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hey guys just wanted to share what I’ve been doing regarding QT. So all the fish I bring in go into a freshwater dip upon arrival, at least 3-5 mins for small fish and about 5-7 mins for larger fish. Then they go into my QT system which is running hypo at .019, and low dose of coppersafe, about a third of recommended dose, also have two large UV’s one with low flow one with high flow. They stay in the QT system for 2 weeks. After the 2 week period the fish that are ready (no signs of diseases, eating and healthy) to go onto the sales floor system, they get acclimated to the new system water then another fresh water dip, before entering the sales floor system. Sales floor system running at 1.021, no copper in sales floor system. I am very open to hearing feedback on my methodology, and any advice you guys may have! I am trying to do this QT process the right way and answer the call to supplying properly QT’d fish. Feel free to reply to this thread or message me. Either way I would love to hear your thoughts! Thanks in advance!
Kenny
Kenny
Also wanted to add, if any fish in QT display any sort of disease or pests they get freshwater dipped again and go into a separate housing and get full strength copper dose with hypo at .016.
H2OPlayar
Supporting Member
I have no real experience with this, but do you see any issue with the fish in your system going from 1.021 to the 1.025ish that many people run? Space and resources are a limiting factor for sure, but do you see any value in a 3rd system that jumps the fish up to that level?
The 2 UV's seem overkill as my understanding is one flow rate is tuned for parasites while the other is tuned for diatoms, and I don't think the diatoms would be an issue with this system. This is one that doesn't hurt, so maybe no reason not to if not cost or space prohibitive.
It is impressive to see you putting the effort into the health of the fish and thus the quality of product your customers are getting from you.
Wouldn't the low dose of copper (and also maybe the not full hypo) tend to suppress/hide issues? I'm no expert in QT so I could be way off.
@under_water_ninja it might be worth starting your own thread for this, that way the info of what you are doing to ensure your customers get healthy fish will be easier to find! I agree with @H2OPlayar it's nice to see this effort being made!
I think @Thales talked about this recently. I don't want to quote numbers because I don't remember exactly. But I believe this was in the range he said would not be a concern.
Qwiv
Supporting Member
Hypo-salinity Treatment levels are 1.009, not 1.016, so you are really doing disease suppression at that level. Same with lower dosage of Copper. Good retail strategy to keep the fish alive and remove active issues but it is not eradicating disease, just suppressing it. Observing a fish for disease while under active disease suppression will just cloak the presence of infection/disease. These are effective retail strategies, but could be considered misleading to a customer if you are stating these are Quarantined fish.
humble.fish
humble.fish
I think what you are doing is perfect as long as you don't label the fish as Quarantined. If you really want to market fish as Quarantined, you should spend some time at Humblefish to develop a protocol that will work with you and your store and decide on what diseases you want to treat for and do it right. It will 3x the cost of the fish. You also need to hold the fish for a while so their immune system gets a chance to recover. That takes a lot of time, space and energy. I personally feel a LFS doing observation and removing sick fish before they get in your retail tanks like you are doing is the best you can do as it protects your fish system and gives customers some assurance that the fish is healthy enough to take home and QT as they see appropriate. I would rather see the observation period be done while not under disease suppression, but I understand while it isn't being done that way.
Hyposalinity
Hyposalinity aka Osmotic Shock Therapy (updated 1-11-23) What It Treats: Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) and Flukes (Monogeneans) How To Treat: Place the fish you wish to treat in a quarantine tank with SG & temperature matching the tank they came from. Over a period of 48 hours, gradually...
humble.fish
How To - Quarantine
How to Setup a Quarantine Tank (updated 4-6-2023) The following are the essentials: Aquarium (10-30 gallons seems to work for most people. A larger QT lets you house more fish and gives you more wiggle room when it comes to ammonia. A smaller QT is cheaper, easier to maintain and can be...
humble.fish
I think what you are doing is perfect as long as you don't label the fish as Quarantined. If you really want to market fish as Quarantined, you should spend some time at Humblefish to develop a protocol that will work with you and your store and decide on what diseases you want to treat for and do it right. It will 3x the cost of the fish. You also need to hold the fish for a while so their immune system gets a chance to recover. That takes a lot of time, space and energy. I personally feel a LFS doing observation and removing sick fish before they get in your retail tanks like you are doing is the best you can do as it protects your fish system and gives customers some assurance that the fish is healthy enough to take home and QT as they see appropriate. I would rather see the observation period be done while not under disease suppression, but I understand while it isn't being done that way.
I'm happy to have the discussion continue in this thread. I'm also happy to see it happen in a different one for higher visibility. I leave it to @under_water_ninja to decide at his discretion.
The gotcha I've read from humble fish's site is similar to doing half doses of antibiotics causing super bugs, partial doses of fish treatments do too. Partial hypo and partial copper will kill the bugs it kills, and not kill the ones it doesn't, leaving the ones it doesn't to proliferate.
I'm not sure what's right, but being open about what's being done and trying to do better I appreciate.
The gotcha I've read from humble fish's site is similar to doing half doses of antibiotics causing super bugs, partial doses of fish treatments do too. Partial hypo and partial copper will kill the bugs it kills, and not kill the ones it doesn't, leaving the ones it doesn't to proliferate.
I'm not sure what's right, but being open about what's being done and trying to do better I appreciate.
Also all that being said, I personally would be willing to pay significantly extra for a LFS to do a full QT treatment ala https://drreefsquarantinedfish.com/quarantine-procedure/
Thank you for the input. I’m reevaluating my approach to all of this. I totally see the disease suppression factor here! My original idea was to do just observation for two weeks before going out for sale, and pulling out anything that showed signs of disease or parasites and treating them separately. Then I switched to doing the method described above. So now I might either go back to observation method or go full on QT, I read the article about it from doctor reef. This is something I can possibly do. It would also mean pulling all the fish from my sales floor tanks and putting them back into the new QT setup, which I should probably drain the system out as well. The dr reef qt method I can probably do, the whole reason I got the space I did was to have proper qt’d fish. I also now that just your average salt water fish keep might not want to pay 3x the price. So that is also another debate of mine. Offer “conditioned” fish on the sales floor, and proper qt’d fish by special request? Lots to think about. I don’t mind not selling fish for 4-6 weeks to properly QT the new batches coming in if I go that route. I am open to everyone’s advice on this as I have a lot to think about, I really want to offer everybody the healthiest fish possible. Thank you everybody!Hypo-salinity Treatment levels are 1.009, not 1.016, so you are really doing disease suppression at that level. Same with lower dosage of Copper. Good retail strategy to keep the fish alive and remove active issues but it is not eradicating disease, just suppressing it. Observing a fish for disease while under active disease suppression will just cloak the presence of infection/disease. These are effective retail strategies, but could be considered misleading to a customer if you are stating these are Quarantined fish.
Hyposalinity
Hyposalinity aka Osmotic Shock Therapy (updated 1-11-23) What It Treats: Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) and Flukes (Monogeneans) How To Treat: Place the fish you wish to treat in a quarantine tank with SG & temperature matching the tank they came from. Over a period of 48 hours, gradually...How To - Quarantine
How to Setup a Quarantine Tank (updated 4-6-2023) The following are the essentials: Aquarium (10-30 gallons seems to work for most people. A larger QT lets you house more fish and gives you more wiggle room when it comes to ammonia. A smaller QT is cheaper, easier to maintain and can be...
I think what you are doing is perfect as long as you don't label the fish as Quarantined. If you really want to market fish as Quarantined, you should spend some time at Humblefish to develop a protocol that will work with you and your store and decide on what diseases you want to treat for and do it right. It will 3x the cost of the fish. You also need to hold the fish for a while so their immune system gets a chance to recover. That takes a lot of time, space and energy. I personally feel a LFS doing observation and removing sick fish before they get in your retail tanks like you are doing is the best you can do as it protects your fish system and gives customers some assurance that the fish is healthy enough to take home and QT as they see appropriate. I would rather see the observation period be done while not under disease suppression, but I understand while it isn't being done that way.
Sorry this took over your thread! It just seemed relevant. I appreciate all the advice! I did a general reply up above
Absolutely no issue with you commenting here, I did after all send you the link in direct message
!I have opinions on all this, as do obviously people in this chat group. I also imagine 99% of the revenue would come from people who don't give a shit about any of it and will be out of the hobby in 6 months with dead fish anyway, so it's certainly a complicated area and I appreciate your thinking about it.
H2OPlayar
Supporting Member
Totally agree. Someone like me setting up a new big system, I would totally pay for the quarantine to have the healthy fish. Someone like me two years ago wouldn't pay the extra and would just roll the dice.
I think the minority of hobbyists are willing to pay the 3x, unless we can figure out a way to get the education out there to show the benefit.
I think the minority of hobbyists are willing to pay the 3x, unless we can figure out a way to get the education out there to show the benefit.
Wanted to update! I am currently working with Dr. Fish from humble fish. I will have full on QT setup very soon!!!! Will give you guys more detail in a bit. Thank to everybody for the input and advice!
Oh man that's awesome! I hope it works out for you. Maybe there's even an expansion option there where you could mass QT fish for other stores in the area.
I don’t have the space for that, lol. Hey but anything is possible!