High Tide Aquatics

Guide: Lanthanum Chloride dosing for Phosphate control

Well @CharlesJohns58 - your timing is exquisite as I had also just received latest ICP same day where it had increased to 4.x. This is after I cut dose in 1/2 and prolonged the period. My guess is residual lanthanum in the sand/rocks?

Dosing is offline at moment anyway as protein skimmer decided to overflow while I am gone on vacation. Housesitter emptied the cup and adjusted settings so if looks stable I may resume at 1/4 the dose..

Am I better though letting PO4 rise back to .7 to .8 (from current .15) and dosing a nitrate solution instead to get the molar ratio of 50-100? (And should it be closer to one end?)

By reducing the PO4 I was seeing better growth in the SPS -but based on your lecture at HTA I am curious if simply getting to a NO3 of 30 would accomplish the same results (assuming PO4 of .75)
My understanding is that higher PO4 dulls calcification in SPS?

TIA for any insights.
 
@L/B Block

The reaction of La with PO4 is pretty quick but it does need some contact time as explained in the article I provided the link to. La is not something that would pool somewhere and I doubt that LaPO4 precipitate would dissolve again at normal tank pH levels. I am not a chemist so someone who is could tell you at what pH it would dissolve at. Even if it was dissolving in say a lower pH area like a sand bed or rockwork, once it got back into the water column it would recombine with free PO4, I would think. Even though you decreased the amount you are adding it doesn't sound like you have addressed trapping any residual that makes it past your fractionator. That would be the next step I would try.

Yes high PO4 can impact calcification assuming all other parameters, in particular alkalinity remain the same. Its a pretty involved topic but basically, if you increase nutrient levels and there is a resulting increase in zooxanthellae, then the demand for inorganic carbon goes up and they can outcompete the coral for it. This leads to issues with calcification. One way to counter that increased demand is to provide more inorganic carbon in the form of bicarbonate ... IOW increasing your alkalinity. There are several papers on the effects of the increase of P and N on calcification but unfortunately, they do not say anything about the alkalinity levels they were using. They basically show that the coral will grow quicker but the skeleton becomes less dense. But what if you also increased alkalinity, what effect would that have on the skeletal density? Its a question someone needs to look at. However, these research papers are doing this work to determine what effect future ocean chemistry changes will have on corals reefs, and alkalinity is predicted to go down not up; it already has dropped over the last 30+ years.

For me, I would want to get to lower nitrate and phosphate levels by keeping the ratio around 50-100, but the oceans reefs generally have much much lower ratios. However, you need to realize that the zooxanthellae have increased in number in a high nutrient environment, so if you start limiting their nutrient sources, this will impact their number and so any change needs to be done very slowly. I have no experience in doing this, but if it was something I was looking to do, I think I would lean towards lowering both N and P levels in such a way as to maintain the current ratio where my corals are doing well.

As many have said here and elsewhere, the bottom line is how are your corals doing and under what conditions are they doing the best in your opinion. When things are going well and you decide you want to change something just because someone has come along and said a certain value or practice is better, or what I often hear is "well that is the level in the ocean", to me that is not a reason to change what is working for me. So if you find your corals are doing better at the PO4 level you have I would not mess with that.

As to which where the ratio should be on scale of 50-100, I can't tell you as I don't know. Currently our large reef runs between 98 and 125 and things look okay. I would like to lower the NO3 which is just over 40 ppm down to say 10-15 range, and I will lower PO4 at the same time, but I am currently exploring different options to lower the NO3 e.g. sulfur denitrification, ethanol filter, decreasing the number of large fish and hence feeds, water changes, adding more sand etc etc.

Hope this makes sense.

Best fishes,

C-
 
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@L/B Block

The reaction of La with PO4 is pretty quick but it does need some contact time as explained in the article I provided the link to. La is not something that would pool somewhere and I doubt that LaPO4 precipitate would dissolve again at normal tank pH levels. I am not a chemist so someone who is could tell you at what pH it would dissolve at. Even if it was dissolving in say a lower pH area like a sand bed or rockwork, once it got back into the water column it would recombine with free PO4, I would think. Even though you decreased the amount you are adding it doesn't sound like you have addressed trapping any residual that makes it past your fractionator. That would be the next step I would try.

Yes high PO4 can impact calcification assuming all other parameters, in particular alkalinity remain the same. Its a pretty involved topic but basically, if you increase nutrient levels and there is a resulting increase in zooxanthellae, then the demand for inorganic carbon goes up and they can outcompete the coral for it. This leads to issues with calcification. One way to counter that increased demand is to provide more inorganic carbon in the form of bicarbonate ... IOW increasing you alkalinity. There are several papers on the effects of the increase of P and N on calcification but unfortunately, they do not say anything about the alkalinity levels they were using. They basically show that the coral will grow quicker but the skeleton becomes less dense. But what if you also increased alkalinity, what effect would that have on the skeletal density? Its a questions someone needs to look at. However, these research papers are doing this work to determine what effect future ocean chemistry changes will have on corals reefs, and alkalinity is predicted to go down not up; it already has dropped over the last 30+ years.

For me, I would want to get to lower nitrate and phosphate levels by keeping the ratio around 50-100, but the oceans reefs generally have much much lower ratios. However, you need to realize that the zooxanthellae have increased in number in a high nutrient environment, so if you start limiting their nutrient sources, this will impact their number and so any change needs to be done very slowly. I have no experience in doing this, but if it was something I was looking to do, I think I would lean towards lowering both N and P levels in such a way as to maintain the current ratio where my corals are doing well.

As many have said here and elsewhere, the bottom line is how are your corals doing and under what conditions are they doing the best in your opinion. When things are going well and you decide you want to change something just because someone has come along and said a certain value or practice is better, or what I often hear is "well that is the level in the ocean", to me that is not a reason to change what is working for me. So if you find your corals are doing better at the PO4 level you have I would not mess with that.

As to which where the ratio should be on scale of 50-100, I can't tell you as I don't know. Currently our large reef runs between 98 and 125 and things look okay. I would like to lower the NO3 which is just over 40 ppm down to say 10-15 range, and I will lower PO4 at the same time, but I am currently exploring different options to lower the NO3 e.g. sulfur denitrification, ethanol filter, decreasing the number of large fish and hence feeds, water changes, adding more sand etc etc.

Hope this makes sense.

Best fishes,

C-


@C -thank you for taking the time to provide a detailed response to my question, especially about higher nutrient levels vs calcification.

I’ll have to consider all the options as usual.


Which makes running a SW tank so interesting and sometimes maddening all the same time.

I’ll report back in a couple months when I ship off the next ICP!
 
I just ended up using TM’s product as it gave a dosing guide.

I also dilute it 40:1.. but obviously my dose is still too high!

There is some confusion in their instructions which could lead to some problems if you don't read everything on their site on how to use it. At first they say you can use it to quickly lower phosphate, which is the last thing you want to do in a reef tank, but later on down the page if you open the subsections, they do say in a reef tank where the corals are adapted to higher PO4 levels, you need to bring down the PO4 very slowly. Based on my 16 years of data with our big reef tank, if you don't take into account the NO3 level as you lower the PO4 level, you can run into issues due to P limitation, depending on where your NO3 is at.

C-
 
I just ended up using TM’s product as it gave a dosing guide.

I also dilute it 40:1.. but obviously my dose is still too high!

I found some near me. Picking it up today. So to confirm, you dilute 1 part Elimi-Phos with 40 parts RODI? How is your dose still too high?

I does mention caution with tangs. My thought was to dose it into the drain section and let precipitate into the coarse sponge. Would this allow sufficient contact time and minimize precipitated particles to get to the return pump?

I'll go back and reread the responses on this thread. But I have some tanks without skimmers (yet).
 
I found some near me. Picking it up today. So to confirm, you dilute 1 part Elimi-Phos with 40 parts RODI? How is your dose still too high?

I does mention caution with tangs. My thought was to dose it into the drain section and let precipitate into the coarse sponge. Would this allow sufficient contact time and minimize precipitated particles to get to the return pump?

I'll go back and reread the responses on this thread. But I have some tanks without skimmers (yet).
For a hobby tank, I wouldn’t use it without a skimmer. And of course dosing into or upstream of it. There are other ways to remove the precipitate like just a filter sock or other fine mechanical filtration. But the skimmer helps with mixing/dwell time as well as removing the precipitate. Some of the hobby formulations say to just dose into your tank, which seems like truly terrible advice to me. And is almost the same as dosing into a sump without skimmer or socks downstream.
 
I found some near me. Picking it up today. So to confirm, you dilute 1 part Elimi-Phos with 40 parts RODI? How is your dose still too high?

I does mention caution with tangs. My thought was to dose it into the drain section and let precipitate into the coarse sponge. Would this allow sufficient contact time and minimize precipitated particles to get to the return pump?

I'll go back and reread the responses on this thread. But I have some tanks without skimmers (yet).
A coarse filter pad will not do it. You need something much finer.

Maybe I am missing something, but is there a particular reason why folks are wanting to use LC instead of GFO on these smaller hobbyist systems?
 
A coarse filter pad will not do it. You need something much finer.

Maybe I am missing something, but is there a particular reason why folks are wanting to use LC instead of GFO on these smaller hobbyist systems?
It’s what the cool kids are doing. Everything old is new again!

GFO has gotten some negative publicity for stripping out trace elements lately too. Of course LC probably does as well, just hasn’t been closely examined or at least publicized.
 
Because Rich on Reef Beef does it! And I want to be just like him when I grow up.

Also @Thales , I wore my Reef Beef shirt you signed and to the local Vegas coral show and got so much street cred. I need to bring it to a show that Ben is at, or maybe mail it to him to get the other shoulder signed.

Also dosing into the skimmer is less work than changing out the reactor of gfo.
 
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A coarse filter pad will not do it. You need something much finer.

Maybe I am missing something, but is there a particular reason why folks are wanting to use LC instead of GFO on these smaller hobbyist systems?
My only reason is why I like LC over GFO is that once I had the dosage locked in-my PO4 basically stays constant..
 
I found some near me. Picking it up today. So to confirm, you dilute 1 part Elimi-Phos with 40 parts RODI? How is your dose still too high?

I does mention caution with tangs. My thought was to dose it into the drain section and let precipitate into the coarse sponge. Would this allow sufficient contact time and minimize precipitated particles to get to the return pump?

I'll go back and reread the responses on this thread. But I have some tanks without skimmers (yet).
It’s not overdosed.. my PO4 was locked in at .15. But either the LA or the LA precipitate is escaping the skimmer
 
So if I wanted to try the Elimi-Phos in my IM50 AIO tank, which has no skimmer, that would be too risky? If I dose it into the filter media basket where I can add floss or fine filter pads, that wouldn't work? I do have another tank with high phosphates but it does not yet have a skimmer. Would using filter socks make it safe to try in that system? Until of course I get my skimmer?
 
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