Guide: Lanthanum Chloride dosing for Phosphate control

[Thales]

So if I wanted to try the Elimi-Phos in my IM50 AIO tank, which has no skimmer, that would be too risky? If I dose it into the filter media basket where I can add floss or fine filter pads, that wouldn't work? I do have another tank with high phosphates but it does not yet have a skimmer. Would using filter socks make it safe to try in that system? Until of course I get my skimmer?

I hate socks for lanth. They clog fast and you need to have active water flow, but not too fast or they will clog faster. This is why I started with the skimmer. I wouldn't trust pads or floss.
And my over all use of lanth, based on tanks from 50 gallons to 200000 gallons is do it automated, constantly, at a very low dose - using it like a hammer just seems to be poor implimentation though I know some people do it.
How high is the phosphate and how do the animals look?

 

[Thales]

Because Rich on Reef Beef does it! And I want to be just like him when I grow up.

Also @Thales , I wore my Reef Beef shirt you signed and to the local Vegas coral show and got so much street cred. I need to bring it to a show that Ben is at, or maybe mail it to him to get the other shoulder signed.

Also dosing into the skimmer is less work than changing out the reactor of gfo.

That is cool! Thank you!

I am going to do a section on lanth dosing next time we record. I agree about the skimmer and gfo! And the write up that started this thread is great!

 

[ReyDeFarts]

do it automated, constantly, at a very low dose - using it like a hammer just seems to be poor implimentation though I know some people do it.
How high is the phosphate and how do the animals look?

My plan was to use a doser and definitely to start very slow. Animals for the most part are looking good. Based on your insight, I think I'll just continue with my water change routine until I can source the skimmer and then start. I'd rather not take chances with the livestock.

 

[Thales]

Is the phosphate in the ratio of hobbyist units total phosphate (the way FM reports) or inoganic phosphate (the way the Hanna checker reports)? Thanks

Can anyone clear this up for me? Thanks!

 

[Alexander1312]

Can anyone clear this up for me? Thanks!

I might have misread your question but both test kits test ortho-phosphate (not total phosphate), as per my knowledge.

The FM ICP shows three types of phosphate measurements, but only the last one is comparable to what we test at home (with Hanna).

 

[Thales]

So hanna Nitrate divided by Hanna Phosphate time 1.53 = ratio for 90-110 goal?

 

[JVU]

So hanna Nitrate divided by Hanna Phosphate time 1.53 = ratio for 90-110 goal?

From what I’ve read from FM, they recommend target of 100:1 without the molar correction factor (just ratio of the mg/L numbers like we get when we test). So for example 3 mg/L nitrate and 0.03 mg/L ortho-phosphate would be perfect to them (yes they recommend those relatively low absolute numbers). If you did the molar correction they are recommending, it is about 150 as target.

Phosphorus / Phosphate - Fauna Marin

www.faunamarin.de

The target ratio Charles recommended was 50-100, after the 1.5 molar correction factor. If you want to compare non-molar numbers like we get from our tests, he’s recommending a ratio of about 33-66. So, a significantly lower amount of nitrate relative to phosphate, compared with FM. As I understand it, he came up with his numbers by correlating numbers to health of the tank for a bunch of different aquaria including at Steinhart. He discussed details in his talk at High Tide:

The Cocktail and Coral talk with Charles Delbeek is live!

The video is up for all you to check out! So much good info!!!!

www.bareefers.org

 

[Thales]

From what I’ve read from FM, they recommend target of 100:1 without the molar correction factor (just ratio of the mg/L numbers like we get when we test). So for example 3 mg/L nitrate and 0.03 mg/L ortho-phosphate would be perfect to them (yes they recommend those relatively low absolute numbers). If you did the molar correction they are recommending, it is about 150 as target.

Phosphorus / Phosphate - Fauna Marin

www.faunamarin.de

The target ratio Charles recommended was 50-100, after the 1.5 molar correction factor. If you want to compare non-molar numbers like we get from our tests, he’s recommending a ratio of about 33-66. So, a significantly lower amount of nitrate relative to phosphate, compared with FM. As I understand it, he came up with his numbers by correlating numbers to health of the tank for a bunch of different aquaria including at Steinhart. He discussed details in his talk at High Tide:

The Cocktail and Coral talk with Charles Delbeek is live!

The video is up for all you to check out! So much good info!!!!

www.bareefers.org

Thanks. I watched the talk. I am confused about what a hobbyist with home tests is supposed to calculate the ratio, and what ratio they are supposed to use for home tests.

 

[JVU]

Thanks. I watched the talk. I am confused about what a hobbyist with home tests is supposed to calculate the ratio, and what ratio they are supposed to use for home tests.

Charles @CharlesJohns58 can clarify for us if he’d like to.

My take was: (hobby nitrate in mg/L) % (hobby phosphate in mg/L) X 1.53. Want value to be 50-100. It’s possible I’m missing something?

 

[gmdcdvm]

Can you plug in some numbers so I can see the equation in action? Want to make sure I understand it.

 

[Alexander1312]

I cannot speak to the molar ratio but for the simple 100:1 ratio of Nitrate and Phosphate, FM states in their instructions that this can be measured with the common home test kits.

Interestingly though, in the FM ICP, they use the total phosphate parameter as the denominator for the 100:1 ratio, not the orthophosphate. I will check with them but I assume the reason is that they should both ideally be the same.

 

[JVU]

Can you plug in some numbers so I can see the equation in action? Want to make sure I understand it.

If you were asking me;

Say nitrate is 5 mg/L and phosphate is 0.05 mg/L (units are as it comes off our tests). The FM ratio is 100, which is dead-on their target ratio.

Converted to molar ratio (N : P instead of nitrate : phosphate), you multiply by 1.53 = molar ratio of 153, which is higher than the range Charles recommended of 50-100. To be in the 50-100 range you’d want your nitrate to be between 1.7 - 3.3 mg/L for a phosphate of 0.05 mg/L.

 

[JVU]

I cannot speak to the molar ratio but for the simple 100:1 ratio of Nitrate and Phosphate, FM states in their instructions that this can be measured with the common home test kits.

Interestingly though, in the FM ICP, they use the total phosphate parameter as the denominator for the 100:1 ratio, not the orthophosphate. I will check with them but I assume the reason is that they should both ideally be the same.

You are probably right, though in their documentation they specifically say orthophosphate is what is measured in test kits and they say you use their ratio with test kit numbers, I think.

 

[Alexander1312]

You are probably right, though in their documentation they specifically say orthophosphate is what is measured in test kits and they say you use their ratio with test kit numbers, I think.

Yes, correct. Total phosphate (organic + inorganic phosphorus) cannot be easily measured, so orthophosphate is the next best thing to get an idea of how we do within their ratio. ICP would be more correct though as the ratio is not limited to only a part of the phosphate.

But it is only a ratio which is NOT scientifically proven and Claude stated this many times when asked. He firmly believes in its effectiveness though referring to his experience and data he gets from ICPs, where folks often share their problems (dinos, cyano, low ph, hair algae etc) in their tank profile. He sees far fewer issues when folks are in the range.

From what I remember, the difference between orthophosphate and total phosphate where total > ortho means that the tank has surface bacteria depots which releases all kinds of stuff (not only phosphate), and this is not desireable. So both should be ideally close to each other based on their recommendation.