Kessil

Interesting post from Walt about Tonga

[quote author=Solitaryensis link=topic=4168.msg50057#msg50057 date=1217047968]
I dont entirely remember those pics but when I saw them, I dont remember anything that was glaringly wrong, so im hoping others could chime in. I do remember Eddie holding up a very big piece of millepora but I dont remember it exceeding any size limit. I also know others, including Walt, have accused Eddie of using a crowbar and again, I dont see what is wrong with this per se. A crowbar isnt necessary but I can see how it would make ones jobs easier. So again, I know Eddie has been criminalized for those pics but I dont remember seeing anything wrong.

Can others who remember chime in?
[/quote]

From what I saw, there were size limits they just weren't enforced. The other issue is that those big colonies didn't make it through shipping. You'll get different stories about the legality of size.

Crow-barring does make collecting easier, but it destroys habitat, so its a really really bad thing. Its like burning down the rain-forest to catch a monkey. There was one spot that used to be thick with flame hawks. When all the mature pocci heads that the flame hawks lived in were crow-barred and killed, there was no habitat for the flame hawks - so there are no more flame hawks in that area. Gone, and the divers must go much further out to find and of those fish. Crow-barring is short term thinking, has no redeemable qualities and is utterly unsustainable.
 
Hell the one thing that seemed so cool about it was that from what I saw (via video and pics) was that it seemed like that was going to be a straight aqua/mari-culture operation, sure they might get large corals, but then frag the snot out of them, grow them out, and sell those off. But now it seems like it's simply yet another person who thinks "oh I can take colonies of corals send them to the states and make a buck"
 
[quote author=sfsuphysics link=topic=4168.msg50085#msg50085 date=1217085688]
Hell the one thing that seemed so cool about it was that from what I saw (via video and pics) was that it seemed like that was going to be a straight aqua/mari-culture operation, sure they might get large corals, but then frag the snot out of them, grow them out, and sell those off. But now it seems like it's simply yet another person who thinks "oh I can take colonies of corals send them to the states and make a buck"


[/quote]a

I don't really know what the actual motivations were. I don't know if the 'green washing' was the goal from the beginning, or if the project started with the best of intentions, but went downhill when normal business realities, Tongan business realities, and MO business realities combined to make the perfect storm of ickiness.
Large scale coral farming is hard, harder than food farming. I don't think the American interest in the Tonga project really understood that.
 
Rubbish I say...both posts by both parties. Both have done wrong, both will do wrong and both will go unchecked. The stories I could tell about each.............
 
[quote author=GreshamH link=topic=4168.msg50091#msg50091 date=1217087493]
Rubbish I say...both posts by both parties. Both have done wrong, both will do wrong and both will go unchecked. The stories I could tell about each.............
[/quote]


Yes, and they continue to work and grow. Advising PNG seems incredibly insane to me given Steves first hand experience in Tonga. Is EcoEZ going to be another MAC, with lip service and MO business as usual behind the scenes?
 
[quote author=Thales link=topic=4168.msg50075#msg50075 date=1217053860]
[quote author=Solitaryensis link=topic=4168.msg50057#msg50057 date=1217047968]
I dont entirely remember those pics but when I saw them, I dont remember anything that was glaringly wrong, so im hoping others could chime in. I do remember Eddie holding up a very big piece of millepora but I dont remember it exceeding any size limit. I also know others, including Walt, have accused Eddie of using a crowbar and again, I dont see what is wrong with this per se. A crowbar isnt necessary but I can see how it would make ones jobs easier. So again, I know Eddie has been criminalized for those pics but I dont remember seeing anything wrong.

Can others who remember chime in?
[/quote]

From what I saw, there were size limits they just weren't enforced. The other issue is that those big colonies didn't make it through shipping. You'll get different stories about the legality of size.

Crow-barring does make collecting easier, but it destroys habitat, so its a really really bad thing. Its like burning down the rain-forest to catch a monkey. There was one spot that used to be thick with flame hawks. When all the mature pocci heads that the flame hawks lived in were crow-barred and killed, there was no habitat for the flame hawks - so there are no more flame hawks in that area. Gone, and the divers must go much further out to find and of those fish. Crow-barring is short term thinking, has no redeemable qualities and is utterly unsustainable.
[/quote]

There where and still are reg's on size of colonies and where you can collect them. enforcement and obeying are a different story.

Can you call putting freshly fragged colonies into wet cement and shipped days after AC? No worries, EVERY one of those died....on Sion no less. Can I get a witness...oh wait, I saw it with my own eyes a few dozen times.
 
[quote author=tuberider link=topic=4168.msg49892#msg49892 date=1216943028]
[quote author=Roc link=topic=4168.msg49890#msg49890 date=1216942503]
whose Walt?
[/quote]Walt Smith, he looks like Dr. Quest from Johnny Quest.

Walt is a major player, and has been around forever, I have old TFH mags from the early '80s with his ads in there, Dr. Quest lookin and all.

waltsmith.com
[/quote]

He was a lonely jobber until the early 90's. Boy the stories behind how he became an exporter could fill a library.
 
[quote author=Thales link=topic=4168.msg50093#msg50093 date=1217087668]
[quote author=GreshamH link=topic=4168.msg50091#msg50091 date=1217087493]
Rubbish I say...both posts by both parties. Both have done wrong, both will do wrong and both will go unchecked. The stories I could tell about each.............
[/quote]


Yes, and they continue to work and grow. Advising PNG seems incredibly insane to me given Steves first hand experience in Tonga. Is EcoEZ going to be another MAC, with lip service and MO business as usual behind the scenes?
[/quote]

I would take the statement of his with a HUGE IO bag of salt ;) After all, he said Steve got trained by the Aussies :lol:
 
[quote author=Mr. Ugly link=topic=4168.msg50064#msg50064 date=1217050293]
[quote author=mark_s link=topic=4168.msg50029#msg50029 date=1217025167]
Might be best to shut it all down and let DBTC supply the hobby.
[/quote][/quote]

You do know that if wild gets shut down the hobby as we know it will cease to exist? The economy of scale is the only reason the hobby is even with in reach. Remove wild and rely on small minor programs and 90% of the manufactures will be gone as will most of the LFS. You have no idea how unstable this industry is obviously ;) Way to support your LFS Mr President.
 
This is all too much drama for me. I am sure both sides have done thier fair share of dirt, so IMHO, its self-righteous to sit here and point fingers. I, along with others in the club, could probably tell some stories that would upset most of you guys, but thats neither here nor there. Im not sure why Walt called Eddie out like that in a public forum and see why Eddie would feel the need to respond. Such is the nature of this often dirty, back-stabbing, dollar driven, every man for themselves industry. If you notice, the ones that are succesful keep themselves out of the drama.
 
I understand exactly where Gresham is coming from, I too have witnessed things in this hobby that still make me shake my head a decade after they happened.

This hobby is flirting with a full scale shutdown, especially with the right people backing the shutdown in the name of the environment. Of course those same people would probably treat themselves to a sashimi dinner to celebrate the shutdown. Read the article in the new Time magazine, the finger is being pointed to cyanide in the article.
 
[quote author=GreshamH link=topic=4168.msg50097#msg50097 date=1217088278]You do know that if wild gets shut down the hobby as we know it will cease to exist?[/quote]

Can the hobby change and adapt if the transition to captive propagated stock is gradual enough?

Can it exist in a new and better form?

It's been very frustrating being an industry outsider and getting approached for supporting supposedly ethical charitable reef related causes. It's like pulling teeth to find the real info, and there's so much spin. After tons of effort to analyze and figure stuff out, what little info that surfaces points to massive politics, backstabbing, incompetance, corruption, and profiteering -to the point that it seems that it's not worth listening to anybody involved.

I'm just a simple straightforward techie guy that likes things to be black and white and quantifiable. I hate analyzing my way through 79 levels of BS to find that the reality is just more BS.
 
There will be no transition Norm. If and when the government steps in, wild will be 100% off limits. Every attempt thus far has been for 0% wild. They all have failed but there is a renewed interest in doing so, I got an email a few weeks ago RE: the renewed interest. In fact, I have a meeting next week with a regulator. He asked for my advice and invited me to spend a few hours at his office. Unlike a majority of other reefers I'm pretty darn educated on the problems *PLUS* I'm active in the very area I'm knowledgeable in.

BTW Eddie opened himself up to a clear cut case of slander and Walt could sue Eddies pants off him. I wouldn't blame him either, Eddie had the tact of a bull dozer in his post, along with numerous mistakes. But hey, as Eddie even said, he doesn't look back and doesn't learn from his mistakes :D

I've been screwed many times, but I still persevere and move on. The people that know me knows the exact story. I never look back and learn from my mistakes.
Click to expand...

That was his exact words :D
 
[quote author=Mr. Ugly link=topic=4168.msg50116#msg50116 date=1217103866]
[quote author=GreshamH link=topic=4168.msg50097#msg50097 date=1217088278]You do know that if wild gets shut down the hobby as we know it will cease to exist?[/quote]

Can the hobby change and adapt if the transition to captive propagated stock is gradual enough?

Can it exist in a new and better form?

It's been very frustrating being an industry outsider and getting approached for supporting supposedly ethical charitable reef related causes. It's like pulling teeth to find the real info, and there's so much spin. After tons of effort to analyze and figure stuff out, what little info that surfaces points to massive politics, backstabbing, incompetance, corruption, and profiteering -to the point that it seems that it's not worth listening to anybody involved.

I'm just a simple straightforward techie guy that likes things to be black and white and quantifiable. I hate analyzing my way through 79 levels of BS to find that the reality is just more BS.



[/quote]

Are you familiar with the term economy of scale? With out the money stream of the current form of the hobby you can pretty much assume anyone that has their business built on the current model will downsize vastly or go out of business. With the current trend of the hobby sales being down 30-40% (pre-summer slow down at that) this year alone and NOT having wild be regulated, just how do you think they'd fair? I deal with a ton of stores and I know the current state of the industry. If you remove wild right now by government restrictions there will be a HUGE fall out in the way of wholesalers (most will cease to exist thus a majority of marine stores will not have a supply for both dry goods and livestock - prices will jump drastically due to loss of volume sales, volume imports, etc), manufacturers (loss of sales due to loss of customers - prices will rise drastically as the volume sales will no longer be) and many hobbyists will be priced right out of the hobby.
 
I am on the fence as to whether or not that would be a bad thing in general. I think part of the major issue with the hobby isn't the economy of scale, its the treating livestock as a volume commodity over the well being of the livestock. I am often at a loss to understand why an animal flown halfway around the world should cost 15 dollars retail.
I am all for lots of people being in the hobby, and all for entry level animals, but the pendulum drive to make things cheap has swung way too far to one side IMO.
 
It's like oil. Sad to say but they're not gonna stop drilling as long as someone is making money. Despite rising gas prices, efforts for alternative fuels, and lobbyists; the depletion of this natural resource continues.

Hopefully this won't be the same for this business.
 
[quote author=Thales link=topic=4168.msg50168#msg50168 date=1217178566]
I am on the fence as to whether or not that would be a bad thing in general. I think part of the major issue with the hobby isn't the economy of scale, its the treating livestock as a volume commodity over the well being of the livestock. I am often at a loss to understand why an animal flown halfway around the world should cost 15 dollars retail.
I am all for lots of people being in the hobby, and all for entry level animals, but the pendulum drive to make things cheap has swung way too far to one side IMO.
[/quote]

This industry is 100% built on the economy of scale it enjoys now. It all hinges on the fact we do get cheap animals. Make them unavailable, remove that money stream, and you'll see a whole lot less businesses out there. Sure the animals won't suffer any longer which is a good thing, but a huge portion of what we know know will be gone. Think $200 Max-Jets and $800 Vortecs. Think no donations to BAR from sponsors....most will no longer be in business!!!
 
[quote author=hiepatitis link=topic=4168.msg50169#msg50169 date=1217179090]
It's like oil. Sad to say but they're not gonna stop drilling as long as someone is making money. Despite rising gas prices, efforts for alternative fuels, and lobbyists; the depletion of this natural resource continues.

Hopefully this won't be the same for this business.
[/quote]

It's not like oil, the government really doesn't have a problem with shutting us down and the US economy isn't built on MO. Every attempt has failed, but they have been half assed attempts thus far. The two groups looking to shut us down now have the power and resources to do so which is why I'm taking the time out of my schedule to meet with one of them.
 
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