Neptune Aquatics

My first Fish copper Qt treatment

MichaelB

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BOD
To start things off, I thought I would start a thread hear specifically related to this topic and my progress. The fact being that I've never did this before. Knowing that at somepoint all the advice and wisdom shared here would likely be off benefit to others now or in the future.

My tank journal is linked below if anyone wants to catch up on the discussion and general progression of the tank.



I've have done tons of research in the past on this subject and some more recent which I will continue to do during the process.

I've lost 3 entire tanks of fish in the past 3.5 years in to the hobby. If I remember correctly it was some time roughly a year ago.


1.) The first likey do to a outbreak of velvet introduction of a blue tang to a existing tank . All the fish were dead within 24-30 hours from first seeing the signs. I ordered next day medication with prime. Sadly I didn't get them in time to even prepare to treat the fish.

* the lesson there have some meds on hand even if things are perfect as time may not be on your side.

2.) The second event occurred a week after that. In a separate tank that was on the opposite side of the garage as the previous tank. I had fish in that for well over two weeks. I got some new rock dry rock structures and just added them in with
The fish. Within 3 days of adding them I came home from work and basically had what I suspect was a massive ammonia spike and I lost the entire tank.

* lesson learned here is always take the time to cure new rocks even if they are dry and appear clean/ unused. Especially don't add them to a existing tank without even a minimum curing time.

3.) The third time was like 4 months later. I received 3-4 fish from a tank break down. I added them to a tank that only had one pajama cardinal in it. 5 days after adding them I noticed spots. This time I was proactive. I read videos on natural products that didn't include copper. So I had them on hand already and treated two products according to the labels. It looked as though the fish improved over 2.5 weeks. Skip to week three I didn't see but maybe 1 spot here and there. I relaxed yet contined to treat with the natural products per there label. It was like almost over night the ick returned but three times worse and the medication was no longer effective. They died over the next 2 daya after looking better and more active.

*The lesson there was don't believe the marketing claims of so called natural remedies from online searches. Most in the club here would have told me not to bother had I asked. When the fish appeared to get better was only partner icks life cycle. They drop off the fish and than rapidly increase in numbers. Meaning that those magic potions did absolutely nothing.

If you want a thorough incite in to my current situation it's outline on my tank journal.

The short version is my current 210gallon tank has ich. I'm planning to treat all of the fish with copper power and allow the tank to go fallow.

In the pst below will show the current qt set
And current items.
 
Current Fish in this tank.

Porcupine Puffer, 2 lighting marron clowns, Green (pastel)corsis wrasse, yellow corsis,Melanurus Wrasse, 2 Banggai Cardinal, scopas tang, clown tang,Flame dwarf angel, Coral beauty dwarf angel, Yellow tang, Scopas Tang, foxface and a Starry blenny.

I ordered a 127 gallon koi pond which arrived today.

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1.) I also grabbed several 4 inch elbows from home depot to give the fish hiding spots.

2.) I have a box of 4 xxl sponge filters.

3.) I plan to run a bubble magus curve 5 skimmer with out the cap for added aeration.

4.) I have a 15 gallon ato resivor that I plan to run.

5.) I have a Hanna copper checker with 25 test packets. I ordered another 25 pack of reagent.

6.) I had one bottle of copper power I've also ordered 2 more for backup.

7.) I have a stick on ammonia alert badge. I addtion, I finally ordered a Hanna ammonia checker for emergencies and to know without playing the guess the color game that I've previously done.

8.) I ordered another pump/hose to use for water changes so I don't have to share between tanks and risk infecting my other tanks.

I mixed 55 gallons of saltwater and have it heating in the barrel. Beyond that I have a 32 gallon of rodi water and my other 55gallon barrel full of rodi. I'll likey only fill the pond to the halfway mark or just above it.

I will likely fill the tank tomorrow and get treatment started over the weekend.
 

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I could be wrong, I think puffer no like copper
I saw one article said they can tolerate copper power but not the other types. In addtion I saw a utuber treating one.

Of course I won't go off a single non expert online source/ video Without more research.

Maybe I need to see if Kenny has time to chat . Yet I will plan to specifically research each individual fish. As of now the puffer has it the worst. Still eating but it's concerning.
 
Whenever someone offers me a "free fish" I know it comes with free diseases too. Gotta QT all fish unless they're coming directly from Kenny or Biota. I go a step further and have a fishless tank in the back for new corals.

Also it would be a lot easier doing this in like a 40 breeder or two, you don't need a display sized tank for a temporary QT.
 
Agreed with @Darkxerox. I have medicated quarantined all my fish other than the ones which came from Kenny or Biota. So far no disease outbreaks since I started my tank 2.5 years ago. I use a cheap 10 gallon tank from Petco with a large Fluval hang-on back filter and a heater. I have blacked out three sides of the tank and put in PVC elbows.

@MichaelB Make sure you cycle the quarantine tank and/or put in some live filter media or something loaded with bacteria. I keep sponge filter in a small container of saltwater and use that whenever I restart my QT tank. I also pour in some MicrobeLife Special Blend. The filter media + bottled bacteria make a big difference. I recently set up a quarantine tank for some of my CUC (didn’t want them to die as I go through a cycle of Interceptor) and didn’t use either of those and I got a bacteria bloom within 24 hours. Once I did a water change, put on the hang-on back filter, and poured in some bottled bacteria the water cleared up significantly.

When I do water changes on my QT I dose the new saltwater up to 2.5ppm copper. I keep a bucket of saltwater with 2.5ppm copper sitting around when I go through QT. The copper level in the bucket stays stable and I have never seen the copper level in the QT tank decline below therapeutic levels either (usually there is no material change).

Second, if I were you I would fill up the water level to near the top (ie, not just halfway as you are planning). The reason why is there is not as much surface area and concentration of bacteria in the QT since it does not have the porous rock, sand, size, and maturity of a well-functioning reef tank. With higher water volume it will give you more leeway if you are planning to put that many fish into the QT. When I first started running QT tanks I put in too many fish which meant I had to do more frequent and larger water changes. Now I try to run QT on only one large or three small fish in a 10 gallon. One way I will upgrade to a 15 or 20 gallon for even more leeway.

Lastly, you should consider moving a powerhead from your display tank to the QT system. The tangs will appreciate the flow and the powerhead will help with oxygen exchange via water surface movement.
 
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Whenever someone offers me a "free fish" I know it comes with free diseases too. Gotta QT all fish unless they're coming directly from Kenny or Biota. I go a step further and have a fishless tank in the back for new corals.

Also it would be a lot easier doing this in like a 40 breeder or two, you don't need a display sized tank for a temporary QT.
Yeah it probably would. I gave away the 50gallon tank I had the week before, and a 40 breeder i had a few months before that. In a effort to clean out the extra larger tanks.

I also didn't have any thing to set those tanks on like a stand or something. I only have folding tables that I wouldn't trust with the weight.

I saw this pond thing and figured It's wide and long so fish would be able to swim openly like they are use to in the two and not be more stressed.

I also worried about the clown tang in a smaller tank with other fish he's already turning into a jerk.

I'm not totally disregarding buying two 40s but each would cost the same as this thing I have. I would have to likey set them both on the ground ? Would that be a problem?

I wouldn't wanna keep the two tanks long term either considering the space they would take up. This thing could be broken down and put back in the box another selling point in my mind in any case.

Yet I haven't added water to this pond thing yet. It's from Amazon so I could probably return it.


Overall biggest things I considered are it didn't need a stand and the fish could swim around.
 
Agreed with @Darkxerox. I have medicated quarantined all my fish other than the ones which came from Kenny or Biota. So far no disease outbreaks since I started my tank 2.5 years ago. I use a cheap 10 gallon tank from Petco with a large Fluval hang-on back filter and a heater. I have blacked out three sides of the tank and put in PVC elbows.

@MichaelB Make sure you cycle the quarantine tank and/or put in some live filter media or something loaded with bacteria. I keep sponge filter in a small container of saltwater and use that whenever I restart my QT tank. I also pour in some MicrobeLife Special Blend. The filter media + bottled bacteria make a big difference. I recently set up a quarantine tank for some of my CUC (didn’t want them to die as I go through a cycle of Interceptor) and didn’t use either of those and I got a bacteria bloom within 24 hours. Once I did a water change, put on the hang-on back filter, and poured in some bottled bacteria the water cleared up significantly.

When I do water changes on my QT I dose the new saltwater up to 2.5ppm copper. I keep a bucket of saltwater with 2.5ppm copper sitting around when I go through QT. The copper level in the bucket stays stable and I have never seen the copper level in the QT tank decline below therapeutic levels either (usually there is no material change).

Second, if I were you I would fill up the water level to near the top (ie, not just halfway as you are planning). The reason why is there is not as much surface area and concentration of bacteria in the QT since it does not have the porous rock, sand, size, and maturity of a well-functioning reef tank. With higher water volume it will give you more leeway if you are planning to put that many fish into the QT. When I first started running QT tanks I put in too many fish which meant I had to do more frequent and larger water changes. Now I try to run QT on only one large or three small fish in a 10 gallon. One way I will upgrade to a 15 or 20 gallon for even more leeway.

Lastly, you should consider moving a powerhead from your display tank to the QT system. The tangs will appreciate the flow and the powerhead will help with oxygen exchange via water surface movement.
I've been wanting to consider bio media! Yet I was scared off by some sources say they can absorb copper making things harder tk keep stable. At the same time they would help a ton with fighting off ammonia. How do you balance, consider or plan for that I honestly have no idea???

The sponges I have have biosphere in side of them. I suppose I could toss one in the sump of my sps tank for a quick soak.

I could also add some sumps rocks, I also have ( bio bricks yet the bricks are too costly to sacrifice) Yet ai heard they can absorb copper and cause the numbers to fluctuate. and once theynstr used they can never be used in a reef tank again.

Would maybe just adding one or 2 small sump rocks be ok or recommended

- not to the point of it throwing off copper levels in qt. Not sure if small ones would be enough to effect things?


I also have been thinking about flow but am I right in assuming equipment used in qt is basically useless in terms of using it without risk in a reef tank again?

I have a skimmer I've already accepted as a sacrifice to qt. I have a much better heater with it's own controller that I would prefer to use but meh I don't wanna scarfice it, so was planning to use a crappy glass one.

I have a generic wave make probably not great especially compared to mu mp40s.

I have 4 total mp40s for the 210. One of them I haven't installed on the tank yet. Same doubts as before I know only the wet side would be in the tank yet it feels shameful or hard to sacrifice a wetside to qt. Something I would have to replace before using it in my display in the future.

So I've been thinking in terms of what can I use for qt that won't bother me not being able to use in for my reefs again. Maybe I could find a few more crapy korrlia wave makes for under the water currents. The one crappy wave maker I have does have a magnet so could be closer to the surface. I do have a gyre that would work. Just same feelings sacrificing it like using a mp40.

Any thoughts or recommendations appreciated.

Thanks for your in depth response. I didn't comment on every point. Yet I assure you no word in any response I get goes unread or considered.

Greatful for any advice, and not to proud to be offended if I'm told I'm being a idiot by someone who knows better lol.
 
Thank you for sharing. That is a rough stretch you went through.
It definitely was. Previously I have only lost two pairs of clowns in the previous 2.5 years since starting the tanks - killed by a six line before getting my maroon clowns. Now I'm in love with the evil maroons and have 3 pairs.

So loosing fish back to back hurt in such a short time. Greatful that I haven't lost any fish since those 3 occurrences. Hopefully this helps others as well. Both Bad and good things happen in this hobby. Yet it's always hard to bring up the bad. So hopefully the information here helps others as well.
 
I saw one article said they can tolerate copper power but not the other types. In addtion I saw a utuber treating one.

Of course I won't go off a single non expert online source/ video Without more research.

Maybe I need to see if Kenny has time to chat . Yet I will plan to specifically research each individual fish. As of now the puffer has it the worst. Still eating but it's concerning.
They take fresh water baths exceedingly well
 
They take fresh water baths exceedingly well
I've never done one before. Should I ?

Do I just net him out the tank and put him in a bucket of heated rodi and For how long?

Or is there more that I would need to consider?

He would be easy to catch he follows me around. The others would be a nightmare.
 
The best way to introduce and control bio is those freshwater sponge filters. I use that ( large size ) or long strips of those pre filter mesh. It’s close to the same material. It takes a few weeks for them to seed. Then when I think they have too much gunk or whatever. I rinse them with saltwater and keep going.

 
Things to keep in check when doing QT: Ammonia, Oxygen, Salinity and Temp.

1. Ammonia: Out of these Ammonia is the trickiest, coz the challenge is how to cycle a new tank in couple of days, something that took months in your DT.. You should add some plastic and Seachem Matrix / Fluval Biomax that dont absorb Copper or other medications.. You should definitely order turbostart fritz 900, more than how much you think is required.. the bottled bacteria will help cycle your tank faster but bacteria will need some solids to host, hence the need to put in plastic (I see you already added PVC so you are good there) and some biomedia.. Anytime you see an ammonia spike in Seachem ammonia alert badge, adding bottled bacteria will help.

2. Oxygen: In case you plan to treat for flukes (which I highly recommend, after full Copper treatment ofcourse) with prazipro, you should have a well aerated tank.. add more bubblers than you think you need.. Also, freshwater baths help.. 5-10 mins max of fish in a fresh RODI water with same temperature and pH will reveal if the fish has flukes (you will see small white seeds like thing in the bucket - use a dark base bucket to be able to check for them easily).. pH is often overlooked when doing fresh water dips.. but adding 1 tbsp of baking soda added to RODI can help you reach the same ph in Freshwater as in your saltwater tank.. Do your research on what fish tolerate prazi/freshwater dips/copper well.. chatGPT is your friend.

3. Salinity: Challenge is when using smaller QT tanks with no ATO.. but may not be applicable to you if you are using this koi pond.. still something to continue monitoring, as evaporation can cause things to gay haywire

4. Temp: We often use old heaters since we dont have extra for our QT tanks, but a bad one can cause really ugly things to happen.. Have couple of thermometers.. you can use heaters that are pre-set to 78.. measure temperature often

Sorry to see that you are going through this Michael, but I am so glad to see all the effort you are putting in to save those little lives.. Wishing you all the best! You are such an awesome member in this forum, please feel free to let us know if you need anything to get you past this hard period!
 
The best way to introduce and control bio is those freshwater sponge filters. I use that ( large size ) or long strips of those pre filter mesh. It’s close to the same material. It takes a few weeks for them to seed. Then when I think they have too much gunk or whatever. I rinse them with saltwater and keep going.

I have 4 of those each rated for up to 160 gallons. I didn't seed them at all still brand new. As you mentioned. Thoughts on a few golf ball size rocks from sump on sps tank?
 
I've been wanting to consider bio media! Yet I was scared off by some sources say they can absorb copper making things harder tk keep stable. At the same time they would help a ton with fighting off ammonia. How do you balance, consider or plan for that I honestly have no idea???

The sponges I have have biosphere in side of them. I suppose I could toss one in the sump of my sps tank for a quick soak.

I could also add some sumps rocks, I also have ( bio bricks yet the bricks are too costly to sacrifice) Yet ai heard they can absorb copper and cause the numbers to fluctuate. and once theynstr used they can never be used in a reef tank again.

Would maybe just adding one or 2 small sump rocks be ok or recommended

- not to the point of it throwing off copper levels in qt. Not sure if small ones would be enough to effect things?


I also have been thinking about flow but am I right in assuming equipment used in qt is basically useless in terms of using it without risk in a reef tank again?

I have a skimmer I've already accepted as a sacrifice to qt. I have a much better heater with it's own controller that I would prefer to use but meh I don't wanna scarfice it, so was planning to use a crappy glass one.

I have a generic wave make probably not great especially compared to mu mp40s.

I have 4 total mp40s for the 210. One of them I haven't installed on the tank yet. Same doubts as before I know only the wet side would be in the tank yet it feels shameful or hard to sacrifice a wetside to qt. Something I would have to replace before using it in my display in the future.

So I've been thinking in terms of what can I use for qt that won't bother me not being able to use in for my reefs again. Maybe I could find a few more crapy korrlia wave makes for under the water currents. The one crappy wave maker I have does have a magnet so could be closer to the surface. I do have a gyre that would work. Just same feelings sacrificing it like using a mp40.

Any thoughts or recommendations appreciated.

Thanks for your in depth response. I didn't comment on every point. Yet I assure you no word in any response I get goes unread or considered.

Greatful for any advice, and not to proud to be offended if I'm told I'm being an idiot by someone who knows better lol.
The trickiest issue I have faced when running QT is water quality during the first week when I restart my QT tank. I try to reduce the risk by putting in less fish since my QT is only 10g. I also use a Tidal 55 hang on back filter which is supposedly built for 35g - 110g tanks. I fill the chamber with filter sponge which I have sitting in a bucket is saltwater when the QT is not inline. I also pour in bottled bacteria. Even with all this I have to make more frequent water changes during the first week depending on what fish I have in the tank. After the first week things run a lot smoother as bacteria coats all the tank surfaces.

I have never used rock or biomedia for QT but for the type of bio-load you are planning you could buy the plastic biomedia used in freshwater tanks. That biomedia will increase surface area and should not absorb copper. As noted above, Seachem Matrix apparently does not absorb copper so that could be used but you likely want to doublecheck. You should avoid using reef rock. During QT you need to keep the copper level in the therapeutic range. Reef rock can absorb copper or release it which throws off the copper balance in QT. There is zero advantage in using reef rock, only disadvantage. Biomedia and sand have much more surface area than rock and in QT you want more surface area to work with. You just need to make sure that the biomedia and sand is of a type that doesn’t absorb copper (ie, you cannot use normal reef sand if you go that route but that is very uncommon).

I do not think it should be an issue to reuse either the skimmer or wetside powerheads in a non-QT tank later. The plastic of the equipment is unlikely to absorb a material amount to copper. I would just rinse them and then soak them in RODI for a few days. You can then check the copper level in the RODI water to see if any material amount of copper leached (doubtful but doesn’t hurt to check if you have a copper tester).

Whatever you plan to do start soaking aquarium spong/filter floss/biomedia ASAP. I would also put you PVC elbows into a reef tank to start building the bacteria film.
 
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@Turkeysammich directed at you as well Sir.


Got it thanks. I won't use any rocks or sand.

I looked up the scheme matrix stuff found a article from humble reef. He says it won't absorb any copper. So I will get some. Earliest I can get it is tomorrow.

I can put some of the 4 inch plastic elbows in a tank. The only one they would fit in is the 210gallon the tank with ich any problem with that?

Also I was planning to get the fish added sooner rather than later. Is it worth waiting a few more days until I can soak the matrix stuff for a few days?

I will also toss in 2 of the sponge filters into 2 of my tanks soon as I get home. I figure some soaking is better than no soaking.

I'll post a updated picture as well.

The puffer's ich spots seem to be getting worse, and it also highly visible on the scopas tang maybe it's more visible because of their color. Yet looks significant to me in any case. So far I can't really see it on other fish except the foxface. Not at all implying i don't think they have it; just not really visible.
 
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