got ethical husbandry?

No quarantine!?!?

There are a lot of people that seem to think he is just lucky and hasn’t put a fish with the “right” disease in his tank, but I find that hard to believe. Assuming he’s telling the truth about the fish he adds, etc ... (and there’s no reason to believe he’s not), and the horrible state of the current distribution system right now (at least that seems to be the general opinion), it’s really hard to believe he’s just picked the “right” fish and avoided the sick fish with the bad disease.

And in regards to freezing killing the bacteria, it’s only with things that are flash frozen or exposed to extreme cold, not the temperatures our freezers get.
 
I read that thread last night. I can see his logic that we want our fish to be hearty and exposed to a variety of parasites and bacteria to keep their systems strong. QT is making the fish immune system much less resilient. Its removing all those things that build immunity. My son is a 8 year old thumb sucks ( at night or in bed) and he hardly gets stick... for a second grader always playing outside I cringe sometimes as to what he is carrying but he is doing well.
I think on the flip side- and I wanted to ask but did not, what happens if he gets a fish with velvet? Im suffering my second bout and it sucks badly... the fish loss. QT is hard on fish as well as freshwater dips etc.
I will be greatly and kindly surpised if his system or methods have a positive impact on fish with velvet- that somehow they can get cured.
Ive heard some fish develop temporary immunity but many fish just perish!
Regardless, his tank and methods are fascinating to read about
 
LRS adds probiotics and uses a freezing technique specifically tested to make sure it doesn’t kill the bacteria.

In general, it is very difficult to kill bacteria with freezing. Back in my lab days we intentionally used freezing (including at much colder temperatures) as a way to preserve and store living bacteria. I seriously doubt any fish food makers are sterilizing through freezing.
 
I think Paul B’s approach is interesting and his results have been great. I agree with his basic premise that fish and (all life for that matter) was evolved to be dirty, by that I mean extensively exposed to and harboring microbes, both good and bad. When you remove them from that soup of microbes you are asking for trouble.

The problems with his description of this methods from the standpoint of replication are:

- He doesn’t know which parts of his method are actually important and which are superstitious. No real trial-type data. Several knowledgeable reefers questioned him about supplemental things he does that he didn’t include in the original description. He seems to only want to report on the aspects that support his central idea, but no real evidence for or against.

- His presentation is a bit rambling which makes it hard to extract useful info, you saw some other posters tried to do the extraction. Similarly, some of the terminology he uses is scientifically inaccurate and distracting.

- He says several times that QT destroys the fishes’ immunity, including their ability to mount a new immune response, which isn’t true. We aren’t sterilizing our fish when we QT or medicate them, and although some meds cause significant short-term immunosuppression, I’m not aware of any evidence that it is long-term. For sure the standard QT or TTM without meds would not affect immunity at all. And our tanks are literally stuffed with microbes regardless of QT.

- Feeding excellent food is very likely to be helpful to the fish’s resistance to pathogens, but he doesn’t have any real evidence that it is the microbe content vs the fresh unprocessed no-filler aspects. In practice it may not matter much, but for the purposes of his main point it matters.

- Many thousands of reefers with tanks for many years have never had a tank wipe-out level infection despite not QT’ing but also not following any of his other recommendations. So it’s hard to attribute his real success to his approach or certain aspects of it.

- If he started up a new tank using his techniques and then intentionally exposed his resident fish to serious pathogen-infected fish directly and they did well, that would be stronger evidence. But still wouldn’t tell us what aspects were helpful.

So anyway I take his specific recommendations with a large grain of salt, but I also respect his experience and results. And I agree with the big picture of his main point, which is that fish were meant to be continuously exposed to microbes and that is an important part of what keeps them healthy. Making their environment too sterile is inherently out of balance and risky. Just like with people.
 
This guy is just handwaving and saying "works for me lol" ... it's terrible, anecdotal, non-science-based advice, and totally contrary to all the hard-won understanding we've spent decades building about disease and parasites in marine fish.
 
One thing I agree with Paul on is that biodiversity is very important. I love that he takes muck from the ocean and dumps it in his tank. Our hobby has changed from live rock loaded with critters/bacteria to dry rock and sand.

I believe that having a well established tank with a lot of biodiversity helps keep fish and other inhabitants healthy. I also believe that a fish which is introduced into a healthy tank has a much better chance of surviving than one that is introduced into a sterile environment. I would not add a fish to my tank that has obvious signs of illness without treating it first. If a fish looks and acts healthy, it goes directly into my tank.
 
ddrueckh said:
One thing I agree with Paul on is that biodiversity is very important. I love that he takes muck from the ocean and dumps it in his tank. Our hobby has changed from live rock loaded with critters/bacteria to dry rock and sand.

I believe that having a well established tank with a lot of biodiversity helps keep fish and other inhabitants healthy. I also believe that a fish which is introduced into a healthy tank has a much better chance of surviving than one that is introduced into a sterile environment. I would not add a fish to my tank that has obvious signs of illness without treating it first. If a fish looks and acts healthy, it goes directly into my tank.
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Well the way I see it as the fish you have gets more and more expensive it's not a risk I'll take that can wipe out thousands of dollars worth of fish.

As my taste for fish gets more expensive the care I need to prevent a wipe gets more strenuous.


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I stopped doing QT on my new entries because I decided that I don't have the time/space to do it right.

Imo the whole tiny bucket with a heater + bubbler thing might work for some fish but would be super stressful for some others. I have a bunch of perfectly healthy fish died during my QT that probably due to crappy environment. If you are going to QT, do it right.
 
A key problem with his thoughts:
It appears fish have a strong innate immune system and a weak adaptive one.
They are not like people. A flu vaccine for example would not work as well.
So toughing up existing fish is not as productive as he would make it seem.
(But I suggest you go read articles on that, I am no expert)

My thoughts:
1) A sick fish is more likely to survive in a full display tank as opposed to a crappy quarantine tank.
But that is not the whole point of QT!! The main point is safety for the main tank.
2) QT done wrong is worse that no QT.
So if you don't have the resources, it is OK not to do it.
 
I have bought all my fish from AC-and with the exception of a sand sifting goby that died within 2 days (not unheard of) -most of my fish have survived. All my anthias bit the dust and a couple of other sand sifting gobies bit otherwise the tangs, mandarins, wrasses, the Blenny, Fox face, and a clown are still doing well. Some of them going on two years now.

I know I have ich in the system but only the blue tang showed symptoms and he’s fine now and haven’t seen it in over a year. I feed my fish well- which leads to nutrient problems but that’s a different story for a different thread.

I have not bought in awhile but I don’t buy fish online, take from other people, and usually see how long AC has had the fish for before I buy it.


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I have frags that have been in a QT tank for 2 years. Yes, that's how lazy I am, but I'm trying to get my nitrates under control so I don't just send them to their deaths in the DT.

V
 
L/B Block said:
I have bought all my fish from AC-and with the exception of a sand sifting goby that died within 2 days (not unheard of) -most of my fish have survived. All my anthias bit the dust and a couple of other sand sifting gobies bit otherwise the tangs, mandarins, wrasses, the Blenny, Fox face, and a clown are still doing well. Some of them going on two years now.

I know I have ich in the system but only the blue tang showed symptoms and he’s fine now and haven’t seen it in over a year. I feed my fish well- which leads to nutrient problems but that’s a different story for a different thread.

I have not bought in awhile but I don’t buy fish online, take from other people, and usually see how long AC has had the fish for before I buy it.


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Click to expand...
My point was -I don’t quarantine


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