San Francisco - Proposed ban on sales of FISH

[GreshamH]

I'd rather see the price of livestock double and the difference be used to enforce/develop strict guidelines and actionable control.

..but that's a pipe dream.

Not necessarily a pipe dream. They did it with cigarettes. It would just take some interested parties to navigate the legislation hurdles. Given the current political climate and the “hot topics” of animal cruelty, coral/reef destruction, and global warming it might not be that difficult to do something statewide. Considering that it wouldn’t outright ban sales and would salve people conscience that they’re doing something it would be considered a win/win.

-Gregory

You are comparing a what, 500 billion dollar industry with that of one that barely hits a half billion? You are comparing apples to sand grains. By far not enough money in this industry animal wise to justify the expense you speak of.

 

[GreshamH]

And it was only a matter of time before it happened. People have been pointing out for the last decade that if the industry doesn't clean itself up, or that if hobbyists keep supporting horrible places like 6th that government will start doing things...and here we go. I am not surprised at all.

Huh that main call I have heard has been placed squarely on the marine side and it's collection practices. I have never heard the call that Asian hatcheries breed FW fish in horrid conditions and such like this article cries. The "ban goldfish" movement is one I guess I have been isolated from the last two decades I guess. Odd.

 

[dmhinsf]

Diving in to the fray --

As a newbie, I have travelled around and hit most (if not all) of the saltwater LFSsssss in San Francisco and many of the fish stores in the greater Bay Area with an intent and eagerness to learn as well as to do my duty to the "reefer" community as a consumer (in other words spend lots of money) to get my tank off the ground.

I am more practical than I am political. Therefore, I will make the statement that IMHO, the best aquarium stores seem to be outside of SF. I am sure everyone has there favorite LFS and some people may prefer one over another for whatever reason and yes, buying fish and plants for aquariums should be allowed in SF. However, I have learned more, gotten better service and in a less crazed atmosphere at some of the stores outside the SF city limits.

And sometimes a drive in the country does an urbanite good.

Dennis

p.s. I'm also a big fan of on-line purchasing for some things...not sure how I'll approach the "livestock" when it comes time to actually add fish.

 

[GDawson]

I'd rather see the price of livestock double and the difference be used to enforce/develop strict guidelines and actionable control.

..but that's a pipe dream.

Not necessarily a pipe dream. They did it with cigarettes. It would just take some interested parties to navigate the legislation hurdles. Given the current political climate and the “hot topics” of animal cruelty, coral/reef destruction, and global warming it might not be that difficult to do something statewide. Considering that it wouldn’t outright ban sales and would salve people conscience that they’re doing something it would be considered a win/win.

-Gregory

You are comparing a what, 500 billion dollar industry with that of one that barely hits a half billion? You are comparing apples to sand grains. By far not enough money in this industry animal wise to justify the expense you speak of.

Gresham you’re thinking rationally and logically. People who push things like this through usually are not. Banning plastic bags in SF is a good example of such foolishness. You don't think they could pass exorbitant taxes on aquatic livestock and accoutrements to “curb purchases” and just pass the garnered funds in the form of grants to scientific institutions or colleges for research? Even if the legislation was not passed it would stir up enough muck that secondary less restrictive laws could follow in its footsteps that would still be a headache. Or it could be made a line item in a broader sweeping animal welfare “reform”. One thing is for certain…if it can happen it will happen in CA. Sorry but I’m a pessimist on such things.

I sincerely hope to be proved wrong.

-Gregory

 

[GreshamH]

I'd rather see the price of livestock double and the difference be used to enforce/develop strict guidelines and actionable control.

..but that's a pipe dream.

Not necessarily a pipe dream. They did it with cigarettes. It would just take some interested parties to navigate the legislation hurdles. Given the current political climate and the “hot topics” of animal cruelty, coral/reef destruction, and global warming it might not be that difficult to do something statewide. Considering that it wouldn’t outright ban sales and would salve people conscience that they’re doing something it would be considered a win/win.

-Gregory

You are comparing a what, 500 billion dollar industry with that of one that barely hits a half billion? You are comparing apples to sand grains. By far not enough money in this industry animal wise to justify the expense you speak of.

Gresham you’re thinking rationally and logically. People who push things like this through usually are not. Banning plastic bags in SF is a good example of such foolishness. You don't think they could pass exorbitant taxes on aquatic livestock and accoutrements to “curb purchases” and just pass the garnered funds in the form of grants to scientific institutions or colleges for research? Even if the legislation was not passed it would stir up enough muck that secondary less restrictive laws could follow in its footsteps that would still be a headache. Or it could be made a line item in a broader sweeping animal welfare “reform”. One thing is for certain…if it can happen it will happen in CA. Sorry but I’m a pessimist on such things.

I sincerely hope to be proved wrong.

-Gregory

IMO it will be an outright ban from watching a decade plus of this talk from both industry and GOV regulators. CA F&G has all ready said they couldn't enforce a tax like that and they'd be charged with regulating the tax if it were statewide. I highly suspect that would be the exact model SF would use.

Many areas are opting to ban backyard breeders rather then regulate, very similar issue and another one I am connected to nationally

 

[GreshamH]

Diving in to the fray --

As a newbie, I have travelled around and hit most (if not all) of the saltwater LFSsssss in San Francisco and many of the fish stores in the greater Bay Area with an intent and eagerness to learn as well as to do my duty to the "reefer" community as a consumer (in other words spend lots of money) to get my tank off the ground.

I am more practical than I am political. Therefore, I will make the statement that IMHO, the best aquarium stores seem to be outside of SF. I am sure everyone has there favorite LFS and some people may prefer one over another for whatever reason and yes, buying fish and plants for aquariums should be allowed in SF. However, I have learned more, gotten better service and in a less crazed atmosphere at some of the stores outside the SF city limits.

And sometimes a drive in the country does an urbanite good.

Dennis

p.s. I'm also a big fan of on-line purchasing for some things...not sure how I'll approach the "livestock" when it comes time to actually add fish.

Saltwater, right? Ocean Aquarium and Aqua Forest are some of the best FW LFS around, some would say in all California for certain items they stock. They have impeciable standards when it comes to husbandry.

 

[Gomer]

Saltwater, right? Ocean Aquarium and Aqua Forest are some of the best FW LFS around, some would say in all California for certain items they stock. They have impeciable standards when it comes to husbandry.

Ocean's been known to require you bring them in a water sample and downright turning down a sale because the quality wasn't good. that place is a total mess...full of awesome goodness. One of my favorites for fish when I had the chance to go there :-D

 

[GDawson]

Saltwater, right? Ocean Aquarium and Aqua Forest are some of the best FW LFS around, some would say in all California for certain items they stock. They have impeciable standards when it comes to husbandry.

Ocean's been known to require you bring them in a water sample and downright turning down a sale because the quality wasn't good. that place is a total mess...full of awesome goodness. One of my favorites for fish when I had the chance to go there :-D

Serious about the water sample? Very cool! We need more like that.

-Gregory

 

[Vincerama2]

Is Ocean Aquarium the little hole in the wall in an alley? If so, it is truly awesome. I believe they will take your overgrown plecostomus, just to give it a place to live. When I went there a decade ago, the daughter had some guppies that multiplied like crazy, so every spare tank or bowl had guppies in it because the daughter didn't want them killed off.

Well, with respect to higher prices, it might drive more people to frag and trade their corals, rather than buy them. *shrug* Isn't this a big part of what our club is trying to promote?

V

 

[Gomer]

Ya V, that's the place. Go down a dirty ally and into the basement/garage of some dingy building. Inside is dark/unorganized/humid...and glorious :-D

They had some AMAZING SA ciclids that I wanted a while back. Killer price too (especially compared to SW)

 

[GreshamH]

Ya V, that's the place. Go down a dirty ally and into the basement/garage of some dingy building. Inside is dark/unorganized/humid...and glorious :-D

They had some AMAZING SA ciclids that I wanted a while back. Killer price too (especially compared to SW)

His daughter last time I was there was into breeding Bettas and she had some unlike any I had seen before.

Justin has given me fish in the past. Once he gave me a spawning pair of rare FW gobies because he couldn't take care of the fry and I was in love with them. He of course had vetted me over the years I had been a customer. He doesn't do that if you do not know how to take care of fish

His place is a real mess but his care and attention to the fish, plants, life in general is top notch.

Back left hand corner, look behind the tanks... he has Gremlins!!!!

Watch out walking in though... watch your step in the alley. I have seen human feces there countless times. The H victim junkies shoot up near there.

 

[GreshamH]

Saltwater, right? Ocean Aquarium and Aqua Forest are some of the best FW LFS around, some would say in all California for certain items they stock. They have impeciable standards when it comes to husbandry.

Ocean's been known to require you bring them in a water sample and downright turning down a sale because the quality wasn't good. that place is a total mess...full of awesome goodness. One of my favorites for fish when I had the chance to go there :-D

Serious about the water sample? Very cool! We need more like that.

-Gregory

I routinely refused to sell fish to customers with not only poor water samples, but if I felt they couldn't properly care for the animal.

 

[GreshamH]

Well, with respect to higher prices, it might drive more people to frag and trade their corals, rather than buy them. *shrug* Isn't this a big part of what our club is trying to promote?

V

We also preach ethical husbandry and higher prices could very well mean stuff dies in stores since it's priced out of range. catch 22.

There will be no hobby as it is known now with out the LFS. The bulk of the industries economy of scale comes from LFS sales. With out that many companies could not be supported by industry and those that could would have much greater prices and lower volumes would move. I can name 20 companies right off the top of my head I know would fold if they couldn't get what they are now. Some companies are running a super thin margin.

 

[Thales]

And it was only a matter of time before it happened. People have been pointing out for the last decade that if the industry doesn't clean itself up, or that if hobbyists keep supporting horrible places like 6th that government will start doing things...and here we go. I am not surprised at all.

Huh that main call I have heard has been placed squarely on the marine side and it's collection practices. I have never heard the call that Asian hatcheries breed FW fish in horrid conditions and such like this article cries. The "ban goldfish" movement is one I guess I have been isolated from the last two decades I guess. Odd.

I concur! However, once politicians get involved, fish is a fish. They banned boas and pythons because they get too big, but left no provision for Ball Pythons. The ban goldfish seems to be targeted at low price point impulse buys - its all quasi crazy talk, but I think I understand the basic idea.

 

[Thales]

Well, with respect to higher prices, it might drive more people to frag and trade their corals, rather than buy them. *shrug* Isn't this a big part of what our club is trying to promote?

V

We also preach ethical husbandry and higher prices could very well mean stuff dies in stores since it's priced out of range. catch 22.

There will be no hobby as it is known now with out the LFS. The bulk of the industries economy of scale comes from LFS sales. With out that many companies could not be supported by industry and those that could would have much greater prices and lower volumes would move. I can name 20 companies right off the top of my head I know would fold if they couldn't get what they are now. Some companies are running a super thin margin.

You all know I am for higher prices, but Gresh is right, it would change the hobby a lot. That could be good and ig could be bad. Either way its scary. And either way I think in the nearish future, more law is going to get made.

 

[Vincerama2]

Yeah, and I think that the higher the price, the more unscrupulous practices will appear to take advantage of that. Look at drugs, if drugs were legal, they would be cheap, and it wouldn't be worth it to buy/sell/kill for.

I think it's also true that for corals, club propagations are great, but for fish ... how many people have successfully bred saltwater fish? I've seen Robin's set up...it's NOT EASY!

I think any issue dealing with living creatures has issues. Dog breeders want $500 for a certain breed pup, and then you have puppy mills that will sell for $100, and then rescued dogs for $25.

I applaud the fact that someone is at least THINKING about the issue, the problem is that it's often the wrong people with the wrong information.

Don't even get me started on the fact that fire-arms are restricted in CA by BRAND/Model.

V

 

[GDawson]

In all the years I’ve kept fish (40+ now) I have never seen a LFS refuse a sale to anyone. It would be nice if more LFSs would adopt the habit of vetting potential customers (yes there are financial considerations). I know in my younger days some fish should not have been sold to me for my lack of knowledge and husbandry skills.

A not so proud moment in history as an example: in high school (1978) a LFS sold me a pair of large Brazilian seahorses for a 5 gal metal framed tank with a bag of Instant Ocean (yes it’s been around that long) and a copy of Martin Moe’s book. With zero knowledge of SW, cycling, required equipment, declorinator, or anything they took my money. Needless to say the sea horses didn’t last long and prolly died a pretty gruesome death because of my ignorance. This still bothers me.

-Gregory

 

[GreshamH]

Wow I guess we frequent very different stores as I routinely see customers turned down (granted I probably see 100 different stores a year). Most times the customer isn't happy at the time, but as some one that has turned down dozens upon dozens of them, most end up becoming incredibly dedicated hobbyists. I think having a highly informed LFS employee goes a LONG way in developing quality aquarists. Quality pretty much comes with a price and a 15yo getting $10 an hour most likely is not going to be quality.

 

[GreshamH]

And it was only a matter of time before it happened. People have been pointing out for the last decade that if the industry doesn't clean itself up, or that if hobbyists keep supporting horrible places like 6th that government will start doing things...and here we go. I am not surprised at all.

Huh that main call I have heard has been placed squarely on the marine side and it's collection practices. I have never heard the call that Asian hatcheries breed FW fish in horrid conditions and such like this article cries. The "ban goldfish" movement is one I guess I have been isolated from the last two decades I guess. Odd.

I concur! However, once politicians get involved, fish is a fish. They banned boas and pythons because they get too big, but left no provision for Ball Pythons. The ban goldfish seems to be targeted at low price point impulse buys - its all quasi crazy talk, but I think I understand the basic idea.

For schizzle!!! Politicians are game changers that typically lack "logical thinking".

I totally get what they are trying to do, but as always the baby will get tossed out with the bathwater. Oh stab me now, I'm spitting Robinson cliches.

 

[anathema]

Hmmm, where the heck do you find an unincorporated area in commute distance to SF?