What pests can make it through small micron material?

[richiev]

In my attempt to get rid of nudis, I've started thinking of alternative options for my frag tank. One kinda crazy idea I have is to partition my frag tank and put proven clean corals separate from everything else, but keep everything in the same system so I don't have N+1 things to deal with.

One option is move things into my sump, and do a reverse photo schedule over them. Another I was thinking of is physically separate them in the main display.

I'm 100% confident if I separate them in location, and no physical separation, the nudis can get to them. On the other extreme, if I separated them with glass or acrylic and kept the water isolated, I'm pretty sure the nudis couldn't get through. Unless they somehow can aerosolize or crawl outside the water. Similarly a RO membrane would certainly stop them.

None of those are realistic options, so that got me thinking of intermediate options.

Egg crate separation would do nothing, but at what point would nudis be stopped? Let's assume I do a very good job of building a divider. Could nudis get through fine micron mesh? Could they get through filter roller paper?

Generalizing this, is there a filter material that is fine enough to prevent pests getting through, while letting water through?

Imagine an area of a tank with only a specific water inlet and specific water outlet, isolated with whatever material you want. Used in the future for in frag tank isolation. If needed it'd have its own powerhead. Water in the same system to simplify chemistry and heating.

 

[newfly]

Back in my freshwater days, I had good experience with diatom filter. Haven’t seen those for sale recently.

 

[JVU]

I don’t know about MEN’s but for Berghia they usually (not all the time) have a brief nearly microscopic swimming stage after hatching. I don’t know how small exactly but small enough that you can’t see them.

 

[Darkxerox]

This was @Nano sapiens 's idea that he brought up to me a few weeks ago. Only problem I would see is biofilm fouling the necessary small pore size over time leading to an overflow or leak unless you're on top of it.

Just seems easier to set up a nano with clean frags and regrow the colonies while your main tank is montipora free for a few months if the potassium chloride dipping fails.

 

[tribbitt]

Was thinking abt @Darkxerox comment about fouling pores.

Maybe it doesn’t have to be a sieve. Just like the US keeping carp out of certain waterways with electricity, you could try to prohibit exchange of live nudis.

Perhaps plumbing 2 tanks to each other, with a beefy UV sterilizer going each way might work - flow rate does not need to be high for the tanks to be the same params

 

[tribbitt]

100% not biosecure but maybe enough for reefing purposes

 

[richiev]

This was @Nano sapiens 's idea that he brought up to me a few weeks ago. Only problem I would see is biofilm fouling the necessary small pore size over time leading to an overflow or leak unless you're on top of it.

Just seems easier to set up a nano with clean frags and regrow the colonies while your main tank is montipora free for a few months if the potassium chloride dipping fails.

In my experience a nano isn't easier as a frag tank because of the stability needs of a good frag tank, and the high amount of hands on work created. The difference between my 10 gallon frag tank to my 30 to my current 60ish was huge. Also practically, it'd need to be a pretty large tank to handle all my montis.

That's also why I'm curious about the pore size required, because it'd be straightforward to have a section carved off with filters on the inside and outside. If small micron filter paper could do it, I'd even try and setup an automated filter roller paper separate section using the bulk paper people use online. Design the section with the combo of my 3d printer and acrylic and such.

My thought was a small micron filter media, and maybe I could run my carbon/GFO reactor after it.

I could even go:

* Filter
* UV
* Carbon / GFO

Though I'd have to debate if I put that before or after the section. I feel it'd be pretty difficult for something to make it through all that, but I have no scientific data to justify that gut feeling.

Would still be difficult, but less I believe than a N+1th tank. Also in the future could become my permanent coral QT.

 

[richiev]

I don’t know about MEN’s but for Berghia they usually (not all the time) have a brief nearly microscopic swimming stage after hatching. I don’t know how small exactly but small enough that you can’t see them.

I was going to tag you specifically given your berghias experience. Maybe a science experiment you could test if a setup can keep berghia and aptasia contained .

 

[JVU]

I was going to tag you specifically given your berghias experience. Maybe a science experiment you could test if a setup can keep berghia and aptasia contained .

I just shut down my Berghia project today!

But I’ll tell you I kept my Berghia and Aiptasia tanks in different parts of the house with completely separate equipment because they are so adept at getting where you don’t want them.

 

[MichaelB]

In my experience a nano isn't easier as a frag tank because of the stability needs of a good frag tank, and the high amount of hands on work created. The difference between my 10 gallon frag tank to my 30 to my current 60ish was huge. Also practically, it'd need to be a pretty large tank to handle all my montis.

That's also why I'm curious about the pore size required, because it'd be straightforward to have a section carved off with filters on the inside and outside. If small micron filter paper could do it, I'd even try and setup an automated filter roller paper separate section using the bulk paper people use online. Design the section with the combo of my 3d printer and acrylic and such.

My thought was a small micron filter media, and maybe I could run my carbon/GFO reactor after it.

I could even go:

* Filter
* UV
* Carbon / GFO

Though I'd have to debate if I put that before or after the section. I feel it'd be pretty difficult for something to make it through all that, but I have no scientific data to justify that gut feeling.

Would still be difficult, but less I believe than a N+1th tank. Also in the future could become my permanent coral QT.

Just my partial noob observation. What your thinking of sounds at least possible with luck, the possibility of success sounds equally interesting.


The other side of me hears a crap ton of effort, work, and time involved in something that may or may not work. Not to mention all the other yet Unforeseen or unpredictable outcomes or things that may pop up leading to future stress and additional work even if it's not immediatly apparent.

I would see the easiest and less stressful way being to just set up a seprate tank.

I have a biocube29 that includes media baskets and towers that would be suitable for a temporary-long term frag or even a grow out tank of sorts. It includes return pumps and lights, plug in and ready to use. Could also be used as a Treatment tank for infected montis if they can fit.

The foot print isn’t massive and a dresser or small end table can easily support it.

I used diy frag racks made outta egg crate simple but gets it done. The extra benifits is more water than a 10 or 20 gallon tank those are a headache if you don't stay meticulous on upkeep.

I personally have keep biocubes for several years and found their size a happy meduim in being able to prevent super fast swings possible with much smaller tanks.

I would be willing to pass it on to you free and clear if it’s of intrest?

I would suggest basing your decision on stress, effort, and time commitments involved regardless of what direction you choose to adapt. In short count the total cost.

Good luck! and reach out if this may be of intrest

 

[richiev]

Thanks for the offers on tanks. That's certainly a viable option generally, but it's a lot more headache then I'm looking for. In my situation I'd rather toss all the montis versus do that, but really right now it's not a huge problem because everything's growing very well. More pics and details on that in https://www.bareefers.org/forum/threads/dealing-with-frags-from-a-tank-with-nudis.36437/#post-517519

In this thread I'm curious to know generally how filtration affects pests. Currently on this tank I have a carbon/phosphate reactor, and sitting in my collection I have a not yet attached 40w UV sterilizer and a home grown filter automatic filter roller. I'm curious if there's any research or anecdotal data discussing the combination affecting things. If it did greatly affect things, this could long term drastically simplify my frag onboarding (and probably others), so I'm willing to do some additional research.

@JVU do you know if there's been any research on aptasia (or nudis) and UV? My guess is that's potentially the most direct thing to try. An overpowered UV with low flow rate / high dwell time , connected to a carbon reactor to help absorb badness, seems like it could be compelling. Since it'd need a pump it'd also function as a way to get water in (or out).

My gut is it wouldn't stop everything, but if for instance it was at a rate that would affect ich, it'd really mess up anything else too. Funny enough I actually have two available UV sterilizers.

I could do:

1. Floss
2. Pump
3. UV
4. Sectioned off area with "safe" montis
5. UV

Sectioned off area would at its simplest be a second tank dropped into the other one, kind of like a LFS setup but without the permanent dividers or permanent separate tanks.

Second UV would be overkill, just there to make sure nothing crawls backwards into the section. Floss just to keep anything big out.

Still not sure it'd work, but would be interesting I think.

 

[richiev]

Thanks for the offers on tanks. That's certainly a viable option generally, but it's a lot more headache then I'm looking for. In my situation I'd rather toss all the montis versus do that, but really right now it's not a huge problem because everything's growing very well. More pics and details on that in https://www.bareefers.org/forum/posts/517525/

In this thread I'm curious to know generally how filtration affects pests. Currently on this tank I have a carbon/phosphate reactor, and sitting in my collection I have a not yet attached 40w UV sterilizer and a home grown filter automatic filter roller. I'm curious if there's any research or anecdotal data discussing the combination affecting things. If it did greatly affect things, this could long term drastically simplify my frag onboarding (and probably others), so I'm willing to do some additional research.

@JVU do you know if there's been any research on aptasia (or nudis) and UV? My guess is that's potentially the most direct thing to try. An overpowered UV with low flow rate / high dwell time , connected to a carbon reactor to help absorb badness, seems like it could be compelling. Since it'd need a pump it'd also function as a way to get water in (or out).

My gut is it wouldn't stop everything, but if for instance it was at a rate that would affect ich, it'd really mess up anything else too. Funny enough I actually have two available UV sterilizers.

I could do:

1. Floss
2. Pump
3. UV
4. Sectioned off area with "safe" montis
5. UV

Sectioned off area would at its simplest be a second tank dropped into the other one, kind of like a LFS setup but without the permanent dividers or permanent separate tanks.

Second UV would be overkill, just there to make sure nothing crawls backwards into the section. Floss just to keep anything big out.

Still not sure it'd work, but would be interesting I think.

Actually, I can test the UV. Next time I go nudi cleaning I could setup a UV and feed some through it and try and see if they die at varying rates. I could also feed some through my reactor and see what happens.

My gut expectation being an adult would be less likely to die from UV than a juvenile, but maybe that's not a good guess. I'm guessing an egg is more likely to survive UV, but eggs also don't move around AFAIK.

The only one I could see making it through a filter sock would be a juvenile. An adult and an egg I can't see doing so, but again maybe that's wrong.

 

[Bruce Spiegelman]

Human children. They get into everything.

 

[JVU]

@JVU do you know if there's been any research on aptasia (or nudis) and UV? My guess is that's potentially the most direct thing to try. An overpowered UV with low flow rate / high dwell time , connected to a carbon reactor to help absorb badness, seems like it could be compelling. Since it'd need a pump it'd also function as a way to get water in (or out).

My gut is it wouldn't stop everything, but if for instance it was at a rate that would affect ich, it'd really mess up anything else too. Funny enough I actually have two available UV sterilizers.

I’m not aware of any data on UV for Aiptasia or nudibranchs. Keep in mind UV sterilizers only kill stuff that is suspended in the water and not really able to swim. Aiptasia often propagates by budding, which would be completely unaffected. There is variety in the life cycles of different nudibranchs, some hatch directly to a crawling stage (which would avoid UV), others have a variable but generally short-lived floating stage before the crawling stage. Berghia do both interestingly. I don’t know about MEN.

Also keep in mind UV is best at killing single cell and very simple organisms. UVC doesn’t penetrate tissue very far, like maybe a couple cells thickness. The more cells bundled together the less likely to give a penetrating killing dose.

 

[richiev]

I’m not aware of any data on UV for Aiptasia or nudibranchs. Keep in mind UV sterilizers only kill stuff that is suspended in the water and not really able to swim. Aiptasia often propagates by budding, which would be completely unaffected. There is variety in the life cycles of different nudibranchs, some hatch directly to a crawling stage (which would avoid UV), others have a variable but generally short-lived floating stage before the crawling stage. Berghia do both interestingly. I don’t know about MEN.

Also keep in mind UV is best at killing single cell and very simple organisms. UVC doesn’t penetrate tissue very far, like maybe a couple cells thickness. The more cells bundled together the less likely to give a penetrating killing dose.

Regarding water born, generalizing, the real delineation is between can enter the cordoned off are or not. Meaning, take as the extreme two separate tanks with connected sumps. What is the minimum setup to prevent the infected tank from propagating into the second tank?

Ways they could get in are either through the water, or through crawling in pipes. Splitting that into two parts, first the crawling version.

At high enough water flows I'm guessing the crawling is infeasible for most of these. However even if they did crawl, they'd still need to travel through UV if it's on the line. It's actually even better if they crawl because the UV exposure would be very high. It'd also be in the ideal place to get hit with UV, being on the glass.

Could an aptasia or a nudi make it past a UV + filter by crawling?

Second the water born version. That's basically the same as above, but at a higher travel rate. Could UV kill an aptasia or nudi in the water column at a long UV dwell rate?

Neither of those are perfect, since they ignore cases where ones on a piece of detritus or whatever that gets blown into the water column and shields through the UV. However maybe it can get pretty close?

 

[tribbitt]

The detritus point worries me. If you baste a bundle of eggs, or a porous sand into the water and that gets "UV sterilized" that might be bad... Probably toss a filter sock before the sterilizer for that purpose. Then it would be 2 tanks connected to 1 sump.

BTW, if you install the sterilizers on the return, that means the sump will be infected with anything from either tank. Drain + slow travel rate doesn't seem ideal.

 

[BAYMAC]

The detritus point worries me. If you baste a bundle of eggs, or a porous sand into the water and that gets "UV sterilized" that might be bad... Probably toss a filter sock before the sterilizer for that purpose. Then it would be 2 tanks connected to 1 sump.

BTW, if you install the sterilizers on the return, that means the sump will be infected with anything from either tank. Drain + slow travel rate doesn't seem ideal.

Putting a UV on the overflow without ensuring the UV never gets air pockets would/could inhibit the UV strength, and lead to quicker deposits on the UV glass tubing.

 

[tribbitt]

Putting a UV on the overflow without ensuring the UV never gets air pockets would/could inhibit the UV strength, and lead to quicker deposits on the UV glass tubing.

Right. Installing it on the return is the only way, but that would cause the sump to be infected with both tanks’ pests.

 

[richiev]

In practice if I do this I'd actually do it in one tank with the UVs attached between the sections. I don't have the space otherwise and don't have the extra lights and such to setup another.

No matter what it seems like this hinges on the efficacy of the UV at killing baddies, so maybe that's the first test anyway.

 

[PjFish]

There’s been a few reads on the use of camel shrimp being used to get rid of nudi + their eggs also aefw. However its time sensitive since once they eat the pests and eggs they may start munching on corals. Some people keep a few hungry camels in their sump or small qt and rotate corals in and out or mesh dividers in frag tank Soft corals would be like cotton candy to them so not advised... . Here’s one old link for the camel shrimp read

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