Featured Club rules updated

[RandyC]

The ban doesn't have to get that deep, you sure are taking this hard. Sure its going to happen, guess where its not going to happen? You can't police the world, but you can your own forum.

The fact is, you guys are really late to the party. This idea predates BAR and goes back to BARE.

We have never supported bag sales.

On the topic, guess what caused the rift and inception of BAR... a group buy gone bad.

If it's not that deep then explain why an LFS does better than a BAR member handling incoming livestock and why that's more ethical. Been searching for the logic on this.

20-30 years ago, I probably would have agreed an LFS did better, but so much more is understood nowadays. Can't just say, it's always been that way, so it has to stay that way.

 

[grizfyrfyter]

The ban doesn't have to get that deep, you sure are taking this hard. Sure its going to happen, guess where its not going to happen? You can't police the world, but you can your own forum.

The fact is, you guys are really late to the party. This idea predates BAR and goes back to BARE.

We have never supported bag sales.

On the topic, guess what caused the rift and inception of BAR... a group buy gone bad.

I'm not taking this hard, just pointing out what I see. But, I'll keep to myself if this is the attitude I'm going to get.
Peace.

 

[robert4025]

Transshipped corals endure exceptionally long transit times when shipped from Asia and other parts of the world. After 24 to 48 hours in transit, they typically arrive first at a forward operating base (FOB) located nearest to the departure airports — most commonly on the West Coast, East Coast, or in the Southern United States.

Upon arrival at the FOB, the animals may wait at the airport for hours — sometimes days — while undergoing inspection by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service in accordance with CITES regulations. By this point, the water they have been sitting in is often severely fouled, making time an absolutely critical factor.

Once cleared, reputable transshipping companies will re-bag the corals with fresh water and oxygen before shipping them onward. Depending on the final destination and available connecting flights, the animals may remain bagged for many additional hours — or even longer if delays or connection issues arise.

As you can imagine, this entire process subjects the animals to an extraordinary number of transitions, each one compounding the stress on creatures that are already in a deeply vulnerable state.

Unfortunately, not all transshipping companies follow responsible practices. Re-bagging and re-oxygenating costs both money and time, and some companies choose to skip this step entirely, shipping the animals directly to the next leg of their journey without any intervention. This is at the heart of the ethical debate surrounding the sale of transshipped animals directly out of the bag.

When hobbyists purchase livestock under these conditions, some argue they are prioritizing cost savings over animal welfare — a trade-off that many in the hobby find unacceptable. For others, it remains a deeply personal and difficult judgment call.

It is also worth clarifying what the term transshipped actually means within the aquarium trade. It refers specifically to animals that have been shipped via international channels and cleared through U.S. Fish and Wildlife — not to animals that have been held and rested in a local wholesaler’s system for more than 24 hours. That distinction matters, because 24 hours of proper rest can significantly improve an animal’s chances of survival. That recovery window is not a luxury — it is a critical part of responsible husbandry.

Having been personally involved in transshipping for over 20 years, I may not have formal studies to point to — but experience carries its own form of evidence. What I can say with certainty is that selling animals straight out of the bag, without allowing them adequate time to recover and stabilize, is a poor practice with real consequences. I have seen firsthand what works and what doesn’t when it comes to shipping and selling live animals, and those lessons are not ones I take lightly.

I hope that by sharing my experience, I can contribute meaningfully to this discussion and help each of you arrive at a well-informed decision. This is a wonderful club, and one that has evolved tremendously over the years. Perhaps the membership is ready to do things differently — and I respect that completely.

What I do hope is that this decision is made collectively, through open discussion and a proper vote, so that every member has a voice in the outcome. Whatever direction the club chooses to go, I will support it wholeheartedly — as long as it remains something I can align with from a business standpoint.

Cheers
-Robert

 

[RandyC]

Transshipped corals endure exceptionally long transit times when shipped from Asia and other parts of the world. After 24 to 48 hours in transit, they typically arrive first at a forward operating base (FOB) located nearest to the departure airports — most commonly on the West Coast, East Coast, or in the Southern United States.

Upon arrival at the FOB, the animals may wait at the airport for hours — sometimes days — while undergoing inspection by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service in accordance with CITES regulations. By this point, the water they have been sitting in is often severely fouled, making time an absolutely critical factor.

Once cleared, reputable transshipping companies will re-bag the corals with fresh water and oxygen before shipping them onward. Depending on the final destination and available connecting flights, the animals may remain bagged for many additional hours — or even longer if delays or connection issues arise.

As you can imagine, this entire process subjects the animals to an extraordinary number of transitions, each one compounding the stress on creatures that are already in a deeply vulnerable state.

Unfortunately, not all transshipping companies follow responsible practices. Re-bagging and re-oxygenating costs both money and time, and some companies choose to skip this step entirely, shipping the animals directly to the next leg of their journey without any intervention. This is at the heart of the ethical debate surrounding the sale of transshipped animals directly out of the bag.

When hobbyists purchase livestock under these conditions, some argue they are prioritizing cost savings over animal welfare — a trade-off that many in the hobby find unacceptable. For others, it remains a deeply personal and difficult judgment call.

It is also worth clarifying what the term transshipped actually means within the aquarium trade. It refers specifically to animals that have been shipped via international channels and cleared through U.S. Fish and Wildlife — not to animals that have been held and rested in a local wholesaler’s system for more than 24 hours. That distinction matters, because 24 hours of proper rest can significantly improve an animal’s chances of survival. That recovery window is not a luxury — it is a critical part of responsible husbandry.

Having been personally involved in transshipping for over 20 years, I may not have formal studies to point to — but experience carries its own form of evidence. What I can say with certainty is that selling animals straight out of the bag, without allowing them adequate time to recover and stabilize, is a poor practice with real consequences. I have seen firsthand what works and what doesn’t when it comes to shipping and selling live animals, and those lessons are not ones I take lightly.

I hope that by sharing my experience, I can contribute meaningfully to this discussion and help each of you arrive at a well-informed decision. This is a wonderful club, and one that has evolved tremendously over the years. Perhaps the membership is ready to do things differently — and I respect that completely.

What I do hope is that this decision is made collectively, through open discussion and a proper vote, so that every member has a voice in the outcome. Whatever direction the club chooses to go, I will support it wholeheartedly — as long as it remains something I can align with from a business standpoint.

Cheers
-Robert

Robert,

I appreciate you responding to this thread. In your experience, what constitutes "allowing them adequate time to recover and stabilize." Is there something that you found that is required that a typical hobbyist wouldn't normally do? I'm genuinely curious as to what enables higher success rate in survival. Perhaps this is something hobbyists/BAR members can adopt to cases other than "transshipping cases" that enables us to increase our survival rates and assimilation to our tanks.

 

[tribbitt]

When hobbyists purchase livestock under these conditions, some argue they are prioritizing cost savings over animal welfare — a trade-off that many in the hobby find unacceptable. For others, it remains a deeply personal and difficult judgment call

From an LFS perspective, what differences are there between yourself receiving these animals and hobbyists receiving them, in terms of treatment for the animal? Very curious if you have experience that could be shared. Learning to receive shipped animals is increasingly important, especially with the rise of captive-bred fish being shipped directly to hobbyists.

 

[robert4025]

From an LFS perspective, what differences are there between yourself receiving these animals and hobbyists receiving them, in terms of treatment for the animal? Very curious if you have experience that could be shared. Learning to receive shipped animals is increasingly important, especially with the rise of captive-bred fish being shipped directly to hobbyists.

Great question! Let me see if I can answer it properly using AI’s help…lol

When corals arrive via transhipment, they’re often already under significant stress. A typical box contains 15-20 pieces, and the water conditions inside are frequently poor — suppliers may use poorly buffered synthetic or local saltwater, and the organic waste produced during transit can cause dramatic pH crashes. While low pH helps suppress ammonia toxicity for fish, it’s particularly harmful to corals and can compromise an entire box of animals.

This is where the LFS experience diverges from the hobbyist experience in a meaningful way. When a store receives a stressed box of 15 corals, they can place everything into a single, well-maintained system — stable parameters, good water chemistry, consistent care. That controlled environment gives the whole batch the best possible chance at recovery.

When those same 15 corals are shipped directly to 15 different hobbyists, however, you’ve introduced 15 variables. Water quality, experience level, and tank maturity will vary widely from one recipient to the next. Some may have ideal setups, but others may not — and that inconsistency across the board pulls the overall survival rate of that batch down considerably.

So the core difference isn’t just about expertise; it’s about standardization. An LFS acts as a single, controlled recovery point, whereas direct-to-hobbyist shipping distributes both the animals and the risk across many unpredictable environments.

 

[RandyC]

Great question! Let me see if I can answer it properly using AI’s help…lol

When corals arrive via transhipment, they’re often already under significant stress. A typical box contains 15-20 pieces, and the water conditions inside are frequently poor — suppliers may use poorly buffered synthetic or local saltwater, and the organic waste produced during transit can cause dramatic pH crashes. While low pH helps suppress ammonia toxicity for fish, it’s particularly harmful to corals and can compromise an entire box of animals.

This is where the LFS experience diverges from the hobbyist experience in a meaningful way. When a store receives a stressed box of 15 corals, they can place everything into a single, well-maintained system — stable parameters, good water chemistry, consistent care. That controlled environment gives the whole batch the best possible chance at recovery.

When those same 15 corals are shipped directly to 15 different hobbyists, however, you’ve introduced 15 variables. Water quality, experience level, and tank maturity will vary widely from one recipient to the next. Some may have ideal setups, but others may not — and that inconsistency across the board pulls the overall survival rate of that batch down considerably.

So the core difference isn’t just about expertise; it’s about standardization. An LFS acts as a single, controlled recovery point, whereas direct-to-hobbyist shipping distributes both the animals and the risk across many unpredictable environments.

What's your criteria when they are considered stable and will be moved to the for sale tanks?

 

[robert4025]

What's your criteria when they are considered stable and will be moved to the for sale tanks?

The criteria for moving animals to the display and sale tanks really depends on the type of animal — SPS corals, LPS corals, and fish each follow a different timeline.

With SPS corals, if they’ve been stable in a well-maintained system for 48 to 72 hours, survival odds jump dramatically — in my experience, up to around 95%. This is why the first 24hr in a super stable and ideal system can be super vital in a critical shipment. LPS corals tend to be hardier and can reach roughly 99% survival confidence within a similar window.

Fish are a different story and require a longer observation period. In my experience, the first 24 hours are the most critical — we typically see losses of around 3 to 5% during that window. This is actually why reputable transhippers generally enforce a 5% DOA absorption policy, meaning they’ll cover losses only if it exceed 5%. Once that 24-hour mark passes, the responsibility shifts to the LFS.

That said, I want to emphasize that these numbers reflect my own shop’s experience. Every LFS will have slightly different benchmarks depending on their systems, their suppliers, and their husbandry practices — so take these figures as a useful reference point rather than a universal standard.

 

[Edgar Sandoval]

If members provide BAR with evidence of LFS that have ich, velvet and all types of pest in the coral frag tanks. will bar recommend member to not buy corals there? IN THE JNTEREST OF RESPONSINLE HUSBANDRY

 

[robert4025]

BTW…I want to apologize if my comment caused any issues. To be clear, I’m only here because your organization reached out to me about continuing my sponsorship, and because my shop’s name was mentioned in this conversation. My involvement with BAR has never been about financial gain — I’m an established shop and will do just fine either way. I have no personal stake in what happens here.

The only reason I still care about this organization is because I believe it’s a valuable community built around a wonderful hobby. But caring about something doesn’t mean I need to be part of the drama surrounding it. If it comes to it, I can simply walk away from my sponsorship and go back to doing business the way I did a few years ago — no headaches, no conflict. I suspect this is one of the reasons AC chose not to return, and I understand that decision completely. I’d hate for things to go that way again, and I suspect most of your members would feel the same.

So please — I’m not your adversary here. There’s no reason to direct any frustration my way. I have a very busy shop to run on a daily basis so taking the time off that to partake in this dead horse conversation is not exactly my cup of tea. I hope we come to some sort of consensus decision soon.

 

[Turkeysammich]

The criteria for moving animals to the display and sale tanks really depends on the type of animal — SPS corals, LPS corals, and fish each follow a different timeline.

With SPS corals, if they’ve been stable in a well-maintained system for 48 to 72 hours, survival odds jump dramatically — in my experience, up to around 95%. This is why the first 24hr in a super stable and ideal system can be super vital in a critical shipment. LPS corals tend to be hardier and can reach roughly 99% survival confidence within a similar window.

Fish are a different story and require a longer observation period. In my experience, the first 24 hours are the most critical — we typically see losses of around 3 to 5% during that window. This is actually why reputable transhippers generally enforce a 5% DOA absorption policy, meaning they’ll cover losses only if it exceed 5%. Once that 24-hour mark passes, the responsibility shifts to the LFS.

That said, I want to emphasize that these numbers reflect my own shop’s experience. Every LFS will have slightly different benchmarks depending on their systems, their suppliers, and their husbandry practices — so take these figures as a useful reference point rather than a universal standard.

This is a good nugget of information