Jestersix

Activated Carbon: HHLE Smoking Gun

rygh said:
Since there are viable alternatives to running carbon 24/7, might be a good idea to consider them.
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Hmmm, don't know if I'd word it that way, if I am understanding you correctly. I'd say it is definitely a good idea to ensure that your carbon cannot be sucked into pumps (this is how it has caused HLLE in several PA incidents) nor fluidized, no matter what length of time you run it.

Lots of beneficial husbandry routines have potential risks--you can overdose kalkwasser, vodka, use too much GFO, etc. As long as we are aware of the risks and take appropriate steps to prevent any problems there's no reason to stop using them.

5 beers in, just a caveat. I'm amazed I'm still spelling okay!
 
Matt_Wandell said:
rygh said:
Since there are viable alternatives to running carbon 24/7, might be a good idea to consider them.
Click to expand...

Hmmm, don't know if I'd word it that way, if I am understanding you correctly. I'd say it is definitely a good idea to ensure that your carbon cannot be sucked into pumps (this is how it has caused HLLE in several PA incidents) nor fluidized, no matter what length of time you run it.

Lots of beneficial husbandry routines have potential risks--you can overdose kalkwasser, vodka, use too much GFO, etc. As long as we are aware of the risks and take appropriate steps to prevent any problems there's no reason to stop using them.

5 beers in, just a caveat. I'm amazed I'm still spelling okay!
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Yeah, must be 5 Bud Lights if you can still spell kalkwasser.
:)

It really means I am just going to think about it.
Maybe consider Purigen.
I run so little carbon anyway, hardly an issue for me.
 
Matt_Wandell said:
5 beers in, just a caveat. I'm amazed I'm still spelling okay!
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Dude you can't fool me... your playing us.

I know this scam...

YOU>>>>Oh I am such a light weight. I can't believe I can still walk. We should do another round.

ME>>> puuuuuuke

YOU>>>hahahahahaha yah I was a bartender for many years :D
 
I could have told you that Gusty. It's all the diesel fumes I'm afraid. High carbon content ;)
 
Matt_Wandell said:
Thales said:
rygh said:
Thales said:
When Jay first started talking about this I had two sailfin tangs in different tanks on a common system that never ran carbon ever. One got HLLE, the other didn't. What am I missing?
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The article did not by any means prove that carbon fines are the ONLY cause of HLLE.

And for that matter, without detailing on how it causes HLLE, you do not know if it is even a direct effect,
or an indirect effect through some other agent.
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Then it prolly shouldn't be billed as 'the smoking gun' eh?
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Well...

Think of it like claiming that sex without condoms is the smoking gun for HIV infection. There are certainly other ways, say needlesharing or blood transfusion, but this is one confirmed causative factor. Actually, I don't think there are any other confirmed causative factors for HLLE, so maybe my analogy sucks.
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That's what I got away with, I mean they said it's rarely seen in nature, however it's still seen in nature. It's more like carbon fines are a causative factor that increases the chance of HLLE. Like cancer, lots of things which increase the chances, not just a single thing that causes cancer (I still eat red meat... and do so happily, cancer or not!!!)

I do question though why do you see them come into a LFS with HLLE, are they caught that way? Or do wholesalers actively run carbon kind of recklessly? (I'm ignorant on that side of the equation) or is there something else which causes it?

I at one time had a purple tang with HLLE, bought it that way (supreme discount), and I never ran carbon and yeah it did end up clearing up, the scaring was still visible but it didn't look as bad.
 
I would be interested in seeing a similar study done for the different types of carbon, wood, coal, lignite, and coconut shell. Also, makes me wonder if you have the carbon bag somewhere closer to the feed for your skimmer, would that be better?
 
Not sure if this is any relevance or not:

Though I’ve seen HLLE in both in people’s homes and in the LFS (both rarely) the majority of the time I’ve seen it is in public displays that are maintained by a service (restaurants, hotels, office lobbies, etc…).

I know there are a couple of people here that do this for a living (not saying your tanks have this issue!). Is there a common thread of things routinely done in maintained tanks vs private tanks that may contribute? Or does this point back to carbon or excessive use thereof?

-Gregory
 
GDawson said:
Not sure if this is any relevance or not:

Though I’ve seen HLLE in both in people’s homes and in the LFS (both rarely) the majority of the time I’ve seen it is in public displays that are maintained by a service (restaurants, hotels, office lobbies, etc…).

I know there are a couple of people here that do this for a living (not saying your tanks have this issue!). Is there a common thread of things routinely done in maintained tanks vs private tanks that may contribute? Or does this point back to carbon or excessive use thereof?

-Gregory
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That points to a lack of overall husbandry, there are some tricks employed by some service companies that disregard the fish.
 
We are just service guys, not companies, oh yeah, and we are both BAR members and actually care about the animals we serve! Seriously though, I think that water quality and diet do play a role in this sometimes.
 
I used to use 20lbs of pelletized carbon that was changed weekly (along with gravel vac to 35% water change) in a 450gal African cichlid aquarium. The fish developed sinus pitting. I have since changed to only 2lbs of carbon and 10 day water change cycle. The sinus pitting is no longer a problem.

The carbon was used to control odor
 
The thing that I take away from this is that it's a symptom of malnutrition, as it's always been described. Malnutrition can happen without it (and does happen in the wild) but carbon strips out "something" that is significant for the fishes health. The next step would seem to me to run a test on water deficient in a single vitamin or nutrient but I don't think that's easily done and there would still be the possibility that it's a combination of missing nutrient. I would still severely doubt that HLLE is an "allergic reaction" type response which is what would lead me to call it a smoking gun. This to me is more a situation of "hey we can remove something important with carbon overuse."

That it seems to be carbon fines may only be significant because of increase surface area, and this all may simply point to using carbon in moderation.

I applaud the author for his work though, and I'm glad people smarter than me are working on these issues.
 
It also occurs to me that a starting point would be to analyze pre and post use carbon fines and granules and see if fines are much more proficient in absorbing a certain chemical. It could also provide a "short list" of substances for the above testing.

However not being a biologist I assume those tests are expensive or impossible.
 
Wow, thank you for sharing the article. I went home and removed my mesh bag of ROX premium carbon (which was well-rinsed before placing in my sump). Wonder if the difference between ROX and lignite carbon would have any effect on HLLE. Don't want to risk having my tangs develop erosion.
 
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