Alex’s IM 150 EXT
- Thread starter Alexander1312
- Start date
Alexander1312
Supporting Member
This assumes alk of 7.7/7.8, which I only referenced from the ICP. You go down your matrix and select alk above 8 and assume I get CO2 down to 500 ppm, N/19, which I did for several days the week before, I should get 8.2, which I do not get with this tank.
I had alk above 9 (unintentionally) which did not move the needle at all, and potentially links to my issues where I have to dose high amounts of bicarb to reach normal alk levels (probably more than twice the normal amounts).
Where are your probes located, what brand are they, and how do you calibrate them? They can often drift significantly in just a week because both tanks appear to trend the same over the past day. Most hobby grade probes really are only good for trending and it looks like both have similar diurnal cycles of about 0.2 units.
RandyC
Supporting Member
All these values assume that tank CO2 levels are at equilibrium with ambient air. Personally, the first thing I would do is confirm that there is not a gas exchange deficiency in your larger tank before doing anything else.
@Alexander1312 I also have a large skimmer and a ton of surface agitation. It takes my tank several *days* of consistently low CO2 in the air for the PH to normalize at what I would expect to, based on the tables/science.
If your tank is indeed producing a lot of co2 (which I think is a perfectly reasonable assessment) it could potentially take your tank even longer for this equalization to happen. What I have noticed is that each sequential day the PH sort of inches up as the equalization "catches up" a bit each cycle - the peak gets a little higher and the valley gets a little higher. But one ugly day (my wife shuts all the windows) and it falls immediately.
Alexander1312
Supporting Member
Next steps in the chasing the PH journey. Or rather fixing PH. There are rather complex reasons why I am doing the below and I will try to summarize this at a later point, so the below does intentionally not explain the ‘why’.
- Significantly reduce skimming - a previously planned action I had not yet implemented.
- Significantly reduce return pump flow - a previously planned action I had not yet implemented.
- Pausing BOLUS as BOLUS requires PH above 8.2 to be effective.
- Change to 24/7 alk and CA dosing until PH is back on track. Then return to BOLUS.
- Adjust light schedule due to pausing BOLUS - including reducing light by 20% as PH drop can result from photoinhibition.
- Limit water changes to cleaning the substrate only. This is a fun one that I might discuss or comment on more.
- Allowing phosphates to temporarily rise higher (not long term).
- Further diluting the alk by 100% since the solubility of bicarb is not great - but doubling the dosing amount.
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you're asking for disaster just to chase pH with all those changes. since you have no fuge, no kalk dosing, or no co2 scrubber, just try to draw in fresh air somewhere into your skimmer pump - ie: window.
but good luck in whatever want to achieve. imo, you're making this hobby harder for yourself than what it is. rule #1 - dont chase numbers.
but good luck in whatever want to achieve. imo, you're making this hobby harder for yourself than what it is. rule #1 - dont chase numbers.
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Kensington Reefer
Supporting Member
Alexander1312
Supporting Member
As I mentioned above, I want to significantly reduce return flow. The reason for this is, in the most simple words, to keep organics and dosed trace elements longer in the display tank before they are filtered and skimmed out, to make them longer bioavailable for corals and bacteria to consume them. This is typically not a concern in a tank with heavy feeding but my tank is rather clean and I feed just enough but not excessive (and I do not intend to change that).
To be able to do that, I replaced my VarioS 6 with a Vario S2. Thanks so much Thomas (@Darkxerox) for the great deal on the pump, and thank you @derek_SR for the immediate assistance with my install issues.
I have had the VarioS 6 on level 2 for the past few weeks, and on level 1 for the past few days. This led to a 1,300 - 1,000 gph theoretical flow, minus the discount on the head pressure/plumbing etc. Below is the chart S6.
Now with the switch to the S2, I really wanted to have 1-2 times the hourly tank volume over (150 gallons net). The lowest setting minus the head pressure should get me there. Pump chart below.
To be able to do that, I replaced my VarioS 6 with a Vario S2. Thanks so much Thomas (@Darkxerox) for the great deal on the pump, and thank you @derek_SR for the immediate assistance with my install issues.
I have had the VarioS 6 on level 2 for the past few weeks, and on level 1 for the past few days. This led to a 1,300 - 1,000 gph theoretical flow, minus the discount on the head pressure/plumbing etc. Below is the chart S6.
Now with the switch to the S2, I really wanted to have 1-2 times the hourly tank volume over (150 gallons net). The lowest setting minus the head pressure should get me there. Pump chart below.
Why don’t you just tune your skimmer down if your goal is to skim less?
This seems like a really roundabout way to accomplish that.
Alexander1312
Supporting Member
Yes, this is action no. 1 as mentioned above, and I have already done this.
I have set the Reef Octopus Elite 200 INT to level 1 but it is still skimming rather strong - a good example of the downside of an oversized skimmer. I have started pausing skimming for a couple of hours after feeding once a day.
However, it is in combination with the lower flow to increase contact time as stated above - lowering skimming alone is not sufficient.
I wouldn’t turn the pump down if you’re worried about your PH (???). Turn the pump back up and adjust the water level so that you’re skimming very dry.
Your goal is simply to skim out less material, yes?
Alexander1312
Supporting Member
Main goal is to increase contact time of added food and traces in the display tank. Keep the same water in as long as possible, limited by the water temperature, so it has to turnaround at least once per hour or more frequently to not drop.
Turning up the skimmer pump - or down - has 0 impact on PH unless you are getting air for the skimmer from outside. I changed this on Tuesday and PH did not move at all. What I am trying to do takes longer so I did not expect to see an improvement.
This is certainly true if the co2 in your room is higher than in your tank, but you’re insisting this isn’t your issue. Sounds like perhaps it is…
Anyway carry on
Alexander1312
Supporting Member
This is the baseline video now and I will report back what happens in the next 4-6 weeks with all the changes I made.
I have measured again with the temp adjusted MW102 Pro and the PH in this video was at exactly 8.00. This means PH is currently fluctuating between 8 and 7.8 - not too bad (578 ppm weekly CO2 average), but not good enough (no matter what Henry is saying).
There is currently only one coral I could identify which seems to be visibly struggling throughout the day - which is that yellow/green torch at the beginning of the video. Interestingly, it does much better in the morning when the lights are off (it gets daylight through the ceiling window), so potentially getting too much light, but it took a while for it to be stressed (?), so not sure if light is truly the issue.
I have measured again with the temp adjusted MW102 Pro and the PH in this video was at exactly 8.00. This means PH is currently fluctuating between 8 and 7.8 - not too bad (578 ppm weekly CO2 average), but not good enough (no matter what Henry is saying
).There is currently only one coral I could identify which seems to be visibly struggling throughout the day - which is that yellow/green torch at the beginning of the video. Interestingly, it does much better in the morning when the lights are off (it gets daylight through the ceiling window), so potentially getting too much light, but it took a while for it to be stressed (?), so not sure if light is truly the issue.
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Everything looks pretty great to me. Regardless of changes, couldn't hurt to dip the torch in oxolinic acid a few times if you see the flesh receding or it not expanding fully. It's hard to over light torches in my experience unless you see it expelling tons of symbiodinium in the afternoon.
RandyC
Supporting Member
I'd have to strongly disagree on this advice. Recommendations of just dipping in antibiotics is just not sound as it can led to antibiotic resistance. If you plan to treat with antibiotics, run a full treatment of several days to a week (or more) to ensure whatever you're actually trying to kill does go away and doesn't have the opportunity to become resistant to whatever antibiotic you're using.
I'd hate to see people dipping once for a few hours or LFS/wholesalers run low doses of oxolinic acid all the time like everyone does with cipro now. It's bad for us (for antibiotics humans use as well) and bad for coral. Oxolinic acid is slowly becoming one of the last antibiotics we may have as hobbyists as the FDA has been cracking down on "fish" antibiotics at larger pet supply stores. Who knows if they'll just outright start banning any pet supply stores from giving them out without a prescription.
FDA Warns Nine Manufacturers, Distributors of Unapproved Antimicrobials for Animals
FDA Warns Nine Manufacturers, Distributors of Unapproved Antimicrobials for Animals
Right, that's why we printed and handed out the protocol from Rich stapled to the oxolinic acid at the swap, and why I'm telling Alex to not treat the whole tank but rather the one coral not behaving well.I'd have to strongly disagree on this advice. Recommendations of just dipping in antibiotics is just not sound as it can led to antibiotic resistance. If you plan to treat with antibiotics, run a full treatment of several days to a week (or more) to ensure whatever you're actually trying to kill does go away and doesn't have the opportunity to become resistant to whatever antibiotic you're using.
I'd hate to see people dipping once for a few hours or LFS/wholesalers run low doses of oxolinic acid all the time like everyone does with cipro now. It's bad for us (for antibiotics humans use as well) and bad for coral. Oxolinic acid is slowly becoming one of the last antibiotics we may have as hobbyists as the FDA has been cracking down on "fish" antibiotics at larger pet supply stores. Who knows if they'll just outright start banning any pet supply stores from giving them out without a prescription.
FDA Warns Nine Manufacturers, Distributors of Unapproved Antimicrobials for Animals
FDA Warns Nine Manufacturers, Distributors of Unapproved Antimicrobials for Animalswww.fda.gov
RandyC
Supporting Member
Well, I'd have to say it's easy to misinterpret what you have said in your previous post.
Alexander1312
Supporting Member
I am still super reluctant to use any antibiotics only to save a coral, and will probably not do that.
Oxolinic acid, like all antiobiotics, requires a prescription in Germany and while I recognize that there are certain use cases, it seems that these are being overused here and I do not want to contribute to the issue if I can avoid it.
I wonder if there are any other things I can try first? Feeding? Dipping?