High Tide Aquatics

Alk monitoring will be coming to Apex!

Well looks like Mr. Walsh did what he was set out to do, show off a concept (hopefully he patented it in some way) and then license it to others rather than have to spend your life savings (and then some) producing it.

That said, and here comes my salty side those with delicate sensibilities please look away, seriously fuck Neptune for buying exclusive rights to this. I'm pleased as punch for you people who have Apex controllers who can use this, I'm happy for Jim for being able to cash in on this, I hate Neptune with a fiery vengeance over this move. If one thing has been shown true in this hobby is that when there are no other choices, you are stuck with what you have. How long were LEDs delayed due to that Orphetech patent? They put out of business one of the top aquarium lighting companies as a result (PFO)
 
It is a business pure n simple. They are around to make money.

Having said that, it takes 2 to complete a business deal. So why aren't you mad at Jim for agreeing to the deal? Why aren't you accusing him of selling out to the highest bidder instead of making sure everyone has a shot of buying n using it?

If you choose not to buy and use Neptune products, definitely your prerogative. But hating them for having an exclusive is a bit much. It's like hating KFC for having a secret recipe!

Just so you know, there ARE alternatives. Mindstream should have a commercial product before the Apex version and a Taiwanese company is also working on a stand alone version.

And as with most things, wait long enough and I'm sure some Chinese company will have a copy of it.


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I realize it's a business, and I can not like that business decision that they make, just like company that owns the rights to the EpiPen can triple the price of it's life saving syringe doesn't mean I have to like it.

I'm not mad at Jim because he probably sunk everything he had (or what not) into this, so him getting some payday is expected. Neptune made the offer with the big sack of money (I'm assuming) so it's them I need to be upset at because they basically prohibit this technology from being available to anyone who doesn't own an Apex.

And Mindstream? Yeah I'm going to hold my breath for that vaporware. Besides even if it did come out, I think the price/subscription it has been set at puts it in a position where I might as well just buy an Apex, because that can do way more (with modules of course)

That said, I'm not quite sold on this being the ultimate game changer than people say, at least not without some draw backs (that being money to fork out for how fast you'll go through reagents)
 
sfsuphysics said:
I'm not mad at Jim because he probably sunk everything he had (or what not) into this, so him getting some payday is expected. Neptune made the offer with the big sack of money (I'm assuming) so it's them I need to be upset at because they basically prohibit this technology from being available to anyone who doesn't own an Apex.

That said, I'm not quite sold on this being the ultimate game changer than people say, at least not without some draw backs (that being money to fork out for how fast you'll go through reagents)
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Here is what I don't understand. How would you envision this SHOULD have played out? Any company that strikes a deal with Jim is going to want to make this exclusive to their controller. Only other way is to have Jim do this on his own and come out with a stand alone application. So I don't know why you are not mad at Jim as well. Jim is the one who signed on the dotted line. So its ok for Jim to limit this to Neptune but not ok for Neptune to limit this to their own product?

So if you had come out with this instead of Jim, you would have NOT taken the big sack of money and signed on the dotted line?
 
How it "should" play out is different than how it could play out, it could have played out is Jim has a proprietary "idea" (patent/whatever). The technology could have simply been licensed out, so if you own Neptune (specifically the Apex, obviously this won't be available via an Aquacontroller, if you're unlucky maybe not even the older Apex), Digital Aquatics, Vertex, Proiflux or whatever controller product out there, then each of those controller companies could make the call on whether or not they want to invest in this technology. Now that is not what happened, that is simply one particular way it could have happened.

Now why am I less upset at Jim even though he signed the contract? In a nutshell he's just trying to get something out of this. Obviously not knowing the details of whatever negotiations puts me at a disadvantage. If Jim went to the companies saying he will only do an exclusivity deals, then yeah sure I'd be upset with Jim as well. However something tells me Jim was simply trying to sell his product and it was Neptune who went to him with the exclusivity deal, which puts the onus on them for being the reason why non-Apex users will get this.

Would I have taken the bag of money? Absolutely. But see for Neptune to offer it, is a business decision, for me to accept it is probably one out of financial hardship. I'm sure developing this unit, and whatever iterations before it, has not been something that has been cheap, nor easy. So it's a matter of "either give us exclusive rights, or good luck manufacturing and selling it yourself". But you're right, who knows, maybe Jim is a very wealthy individual who struck it rich selling his dot-com stock before the market bailed, so the reality is this invention of his is simply his spare time and very little of his actual wealth is needed. But for *ME* who am not wealthy, it would represent a "way out" of my current financial situation, then you'd have to be a fairly shortsighted individual to put blame on me for finding a way out.
 
Label it any how way you want. Even with personal financial hardship involved, it is still a business decision. How much money can I get for this is the question everyone in question is asking. Even in your situation, still a business decision.

Jim felt it was in his best interest to make a deal with Neptune and you are ok with that (business decision). But you are not ok for Neptune to make a deal with Jim (business decision). Its ok for an individual to make exactly the same decision as a company but the company is an ass for doing it.

Double standard much?
 
Don't forget : Regardless of price, this will be a low volume product!
This is not something the average hobbyist even remotely needs. Only a select set of reefers will buy it.
And it does not look cheap to build either.
As such, it has to be expensive with really large margins, or you lose money.

The only way to make sure that business model works is to be exclusive.

While I probably will find the price annoyingly high, I think if it were not done this way, it may not exist at all.
 
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Flagg37 said:
I think at the root of all this there are some philosophical and worldview differences that are probably better left discussed in person.
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I believe you are absolutely correct on this... well partially. I've said my peace, I do not like the move by Neptune, and really didn't need to get into an argument as to why I feel the way I do and that's really the end of it :)
 
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