BAR Bio-Transplants?

[ofzakaria]

Thanks for the tip on Phycoex! I found this with some additional suggestions RE UV and additional options:

Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

What if you concentrate the algae growth for the competing counterpart for Dino's to the sump? That is where mine grew like a raging wild fire to combat Ostreopsis Dinoflagalletes.

www.reef2reef.com

@squist, btw did you observe snails die offs? Dino reportedly come with snails die offs. I did loose all my snails when I got hit...

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[ofzakaria]

On my old tank I'd been battling dinos for over a year until I accidentally added 10x the recommended dose of Vibrant. The dinos melted away in 24 hours and my corals seemed fine. IME there must be something in vibrant that targets algae.

I think it's the bacterial population in the vibrent that some times cure biological filtration imbalance induced issues...I think..
How did u verify it was dino what u dealing with?
I wonder if true, why vibrent do not advertise such treatmet?... its gold, Everyone now days think they dealing with dino...

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[RandyC]

I believe I have dinoflagellates, ostreopsis specifically (this R2R thread discusses), because of their appearance when magnified and their motion. For instance:

Video #1: I found this searching for "dinoflagellates in motion":

Video #2: I just shot using a magnifying camera. Shown is a close-up of my gravel bed. Notice the motion of the specks. Compare to video #1.

Video #3: Just a couple days ago the same area of sand bed looked like this. I vacuum the sand every couple days.

Video #4: I found this searching for "diatoms in motion". Not the same as above.

I don't doubt that this is part of ugly phase. But I'd like to be proactive in addressing this. What I am reading is the dinos can explode in systems that are new (I'm 7 mos in) that lack bio-diversity (described above). I'm going to keep up with vacuuming so they don't get too much of a foothold, seed the tank with more pods, phytoplankton, and bacteria from mature systems.

At least it's interesting, as much of a pain as it is. But it has me concerned -- and it's keeping me from adding coral.


Other info:

Dinoflagelados en el acuario marino. ¿qué son y cómo combatirlos? - Blog Coral Wonders

Los dinoflagelados, una de los principales amenazas en nuestros acuarios. Descubre lo que son y aprende a controlarlos manteniendo el acuario limpio y seguro.

blog.coralwonders.com

Here is ostreopsis under my microscope from an outbreak I had around 7-8 months ago.

on egg crate

after being dumped in a bucket from tank

UV will work to kill ostreopsis as it releases from the substrate at night into the water column in search of light/food and reattach to substrate when the light comes on. A properly sized UV lamp with appropriate flow can rid them in 4-5 days. I got a case of them in my 140 gallon (by water volume) frag/growout tank and was able to rid them with a 57W AquaUV Classic sterilizer running with around 300GPH for flow (this low because I was interested in have the UV manage larger protozoa, fish pests, as well). The ostreopsis were completely gone in roughly 4 days.

It's hard to confirm from the magnifying camera you used, but if you'd really like to find out what kind of dinos you have (if dinos at all), I'd suggest borrowing a microscope or purchasing a cheap one from amazon (< $30 is plenty sufficient).

 

[ofzakaria]

Here is ostreopsis under my microscope from an outbreak I had around 7-8 months ago.

on egg crate
View attachment 13472

after being dumped in a bucket from tank
View attachment 13473

UV will work to kill ostreopsis as it releases from the substrate at night into the water column in search of light/food and reattach to substrate when the light comes on. A properly sized UV lamp with appropriate flow can rid them in 4-5 days. I got a case of them in my 140 gallon (by water volume) frag/growout tank and was able to rid them with a 57W AquaUV Classic sterilizer running with around 300GPH for flow (this low because I was interested in have the UV manage larger protozoa, fish pests, as well). The ostreopsis were completely gone in roughly 4 days.

It's hard to confirm from the magnifying camera you used, but if you'd really like to find out what kind of dinos you have (if dinos at all), I'd suggest borrowing a microscope or purchasing a cheap one from amazon (< $30 is plenty sufficient).

Btw I have a good microscope I can lend for anyone who want.
I agree with randy, proper ID is absolute key before treatments.
Some other factors that I at least saw on ly side beside the microscope, was snails die off, dino disappear during night come back during day. If you take some out, put it I'm a container then shake the container the dino dissapear in the eater,but if you leave container still in sunlight it form again withen 30min...

My microscope sample looked very similar to randy but with more population and the organisms were much more active..

In my case the UV did not work I used pentair 40 watt( it used to be called something else back then on BRS). But did not work.

I wonder if diffrent strains or diffrent conditions yield diffrent results....what an annoying big dino is..

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[Adit0]

I think it's the bacterial population in the vibrent that some times cure biological filtration imbalance induced issues...I think..
How did u verify it was dino what u dealing with?
I wonder if true, why vibrent do not advertise such treatmet?... its gold, Everyone now days think they dealing with dino...

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99.99% sure they were dinos. Brown snotty substance covered my whole tank. I tried everything...week long blackouts, UV, H2O2 dosing, adding live rock from other people's tanks, dosing phytoplankton, lot's of water changes, 0 water changes, and crazy stuff like adding aged skimmate to the tank (I saw a reefcentral thread where it worked for one guy). But the vibrant worked like magic. However, I didn't use the product as intended and massively overdosed, so I'm not sure if a regular treatment would work on severe dino infestations.

 

[Squist]

Do you wanna try and work together on plan? It up to you..

...

Let me know if you want to try, I rather first we understand the system, correct what might need to be corrected then the phycoex is last solution...

Would I ever! I’m the guy who’s going to pick up the CO2 reactor from you. Hoping to meet you this weekend. How’s Sunday late morning or late afternoon? I’ll be in your area that afternoon visiting family.

I’ll write up a summary of the system and bring with me.

 

[Squist]

@squist, btw did you observe snails die offs? Dino reportedly come with snails die offs. I did loose all my snails when I got hit...

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Yes, I’ve I lost a couple. Others seem unaffected. A hermit crab or two have died too.

 

[ofzakaria]

Would I ever! I’m the guy who’s going to pick up the CO2 reactor from you. Hoping to meet you this weekend. How’s Sunday late morning or late afternoon? I’ll be in your area that afternoon visiting family.

I’ll write up a summary of the system and bring with me.

Sure sunday am around, am also meeting rostato at Neptune if you like to meet there..

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[ofzakaria]

99.99% sure they were dinos. Brown snotty substance covered my whole tank. I tried everything...week long blackouts, UV, H2O2 dosing, adding live rock from other people's tanks, dosing phytoplankton, lot's of water changes, 0 water changes, and crazy stuff like adding aged skimmate to the tank (I saw a reefcentral thread where it worked for one guy). But the vibrant worked like magic. However, I didn't use the product as intended and massively overdosed, so I'm not sure if a regular treatment would work on severe dino infestations.

The first part of what you described is the thread and method I referred to earlier..that was such a horrible method of over feeding, adding nutrients..blah blah...on the R2R thread you read it you think it's the way to go, but like what you realized already it's not....

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[ofzakaria]

Btw whatever we do on your system let's document it here so we have a record, we learn from others and maybe (our failure or success) will be helpful to someone else in the future..

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[Squist]

Btw whatever we do on your system let's document it here so we have a record, we learn from others and maybe (our failure or success) will be helpful to someone else in the future..

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Brilliant idea. I would be honored to contribute in this way. We have an almost perfect test subject: new system with no prior history, full log of documentation, Neptune logs and controllers, dosing pumps.

And above all: I really do not want to start over from scratch if there’s any possibility for this to be resolved.

I’m in! And thank you!

 

[Flagg37]

There’s been some really good threads on R2R about a microbiome project. They are utilizing DNA testing to see how many different kinds of bacteria and their general populations. I don’t remember all the stats but the typical “mature” tank has several hundred different kinds of bacteria where as the bacteria in a bottle products usually only have about a dozen. Test showed that live rock from the ocean cycled the tank and didn’t have the “ugly phase” like the bottled bacteria versions.

I’ve always been a proponent of using cured dry rock, but this makes me rethink things. I think I’d still use cured rock but then use a scoop of sand from a fellow reefer that doesn’t have any (known) pests. You don’t need much to get the diversity.

 

[ofzakaria]

That's interesting, mind sharing the link?


Dr.Tim Hovanec have some really good talks and published papers on this subject.

This is one of his macna talks

Following up with people like him, rich ross, randy holmes, michael risk, and couple others is fun and worth the learning..
Royal society is good place for papers and peers review

Redsea also have good easy to understand work about topics like biological filtration and ciral health care...

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[ofzakaria]

There’s been some really good threads on R2R about a microbiome project. They are utilizing DNA testing to see how many different kinds of bacteria and their general populations. I don’t remember all the stats but the typical “mature” tank has several hundred different kinds of bacteria where as the bacteria in a bottle products usually only have about a dozen. Test showed that live rock from the ocean cycled the tank and didn’t have the “ugly phase” like the bottled bacteria versions.

I’ve always been a proponent of using cured dry rock, but this makes me rethink things. I think I’d still use cured rock but then use a scoop of sand from a fellow reefer that doesn’t have any (known) pests. You don’t need much to get the diversity.

So I have a fundamental question here,
Of the start with dry rock and dry sand, Why do we think the bacteria that will come in a small scope of sand will survive a system that have no bacteria or nutrients to feed the bacteria yet? Geniounly asking.
What would be the source if food for this small ammount of bacteria to survive and populate?
I can understand if we start with larger live rocks where there is nutrients and large bacterial population that survive first week or so.. or maybe starting with live sand that comes with bacteria and some nutrients that sustain it until system kicks in...

I think it will starve and die and new bacteria will emerge and survive when the right condition including nutrients are available..

Dr.tim touch on this in his macna talk..

For me over the years, I lole starting with dead sand(I do not lile live sand as I fear it bring with it issues lile cyano), 80%dry rocks and 20% live rocks and immediately start adding bacteria and food source is what worked really good and I was able to add fish and coral in less than a month, I think reason is the continoue source of bacteria and nutrients replenishment..
What do you all think?


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[NanoCrazed]

So I have a fundamental question here,
Of the start with dry rock and dry sand, Why do we think the bacteria that will come in a small scope of sand will survive a system that have no bacteria or nutrients to feed the bacteria yet? Geniounly asking.
What would be the source if food for this small ammount of bacteria to survive and populate?
I can understand if we start with larger live rocks where there is nutrients and large bacterial population that survive first week or so.. or maybe starting with live sand that comes with bacteria and some nutrients that sustain it until system kicks in...

I think it will starve and die and new bacteria will emerge and survive when the right condition including nutrients are available..

Dr.tim touch on this in his macna talk..

For me over the years, I lole starting with dead sand(I do not lile live sand as I fear it bring with it issues lile cyano), 80%dry rocks and 20% live rocks and immediately start adding bacteria and food source is what worked really good and I was able to add fish and coral in less than a month, I think reason is the continoue source of bacteria and nutrients replenishment..
What do you all think?


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So, if you take live sand and there isn't enough food source, the bacteria tends to go dormant, much like bacteria in a bottle. It's alive but sleeping.

On a side note, when you are cycling, even when ammonia is crazy high, bacteria doesn't really die contrary to conventional wisdom. What happens instead is that different strains take front stage and the others go dormant or slow down. Then as the ammonia comes down, the balance shifts the other way.

My best results have been with live rock and live sand. I usually keep sand "cooking" all the time in case i get inspired to put up a new tank on the fly (which happens often...hence 12 tanks...uh. 14. Just put up two more nanos for some experimenting). The sand is likely extremely dormant but wakes up quickly, especially if I add live rocks.

I should also add that my sand is extremely bio-diverse as it comes from numerous sources both bagged and from tank tear downs...when i used this sand, i have zero issues.

My work tank is the first tank i used sand not from my usual stock and paying the price.

Never thought about it in terms of biodiversity until now... but empirically it seems to work out as that in hindsight.

 

[NanoCrazed]

@Squist , actually speaking of biodiverse sand, if you would like a cup of my good stuff, let me know... happy to give you some.

It'll be pest free or at least algae free for sure as it's been in an enclosed rubber tub for like ever.

 

[ofzakaria]

So, if you take live sand and there isn't enough food source, the bacteria tends to go dormant, much like bacteria in a bottle. It's alive but sleeping.

On a side note, when you are cycling, even when ammonia is crazy high, bacteria doesn't really die contrary to conventional wisdom. What happens instead is that different strains take front stage and the others go dormant or slow down. Then as the ammonia comes down, the balance shifts the other way.

My best results have been with live rock and live sand. I usually keep sand "cooking" all the time in case i get inspired to put up a new tank on the fly (which happens often...hence 12 tanks...uh. 14. Just put up two more nanos for some experimenting). The sand is likely extremely dormant but wakes up quickly, especially if I add live rocks.

I should also add that my sand is extremely bio-diverse as it comes from numerous sources both bagged and from tank tear downs...when i used this sand, i have zero issues.

My work tank is the first tank i used sand not from my usual stock and paying the price.

Never thought about it in terms of biodiversity until now... but empirically it seems to work out as that in hindsight.

Great write up, thank you...
Are you sure bacteria go dormant?

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[Squist]

Sure sunday am around, am also meeting rostato at Neptune if you like to meet there..

Looks like the time you had in mind got missed for the AM. I have a group lunch event at 11:00 in Santa Clara. Will last a few hours I suspect. Neptune sounds like a fun place to meet but it’ll add an hour round-trip.

 

[NanoCrazed]

Great write up, thank you...
Are you sure bacteria go dormant?

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Yessir, from everything I read and from first hand experience.

Had times i needed a quick emergency setup and literally took sand out, fill up, and rockin' roll.

This of course doesn't mean that there isn't some die off, just not everything dies off.

 

[ofzakaria]

Looks like the time you had in mind got missed for the AM. I have a group lunch event at 11:00 in Santa Clara. Will last a few hours I suspect. Neptune sounds like a fun place to meet but it’ll add an hour round-trip.

Oh if you will be in santa Clara we can meet then, I will spend 30min at Neptune then am back so we can still arrange something no worries. Let's connect on PM Saturday

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