Jestersix

BAR Bio-Transplants?

ofzakaria

Supporting Member
Yessir, from everything I read and from first hand experience.

Had times i needed a quick emergency setup and literally took sand out, fill up, and rockin' roll.

This of course doesn't mean that there isn't some die off, just not everything dies off.
Have you seen this: I think it's a dr. Tim write up.



"Nitrifying bacteria are classified as obligate chemolithotrophs. This simply means that they must use inorganic salts as an energy source and generally cannot utilize organic materials. They must oxidize ammonia and nitrites for their energy needs and fix inorganic carbon dioxide (CO2) to fulfill their carbon requirements."

"None of the Nitrobacteraceae are able to form spores. They have a complex cytomembrane (cell wall) that is surrounded by a slime matrix. All species have limited tolerance ranges and are individually sensitive to pH, dissolved oxygen levels, salt, temperature, and inhibitory chemicals. Unlike species of heterotrophic bacteria, they cannot survive any drying process without killing the organism. In water, they can survive short periods of adverse conditions by utilizing stored materials within the cell. When these materials are depleted, the bacteria die."

I wonder if that means adding bacteria on a rock or from a bottle to a new system day one, without a source of ammonia will push the bacteria to die or go dormant.....
Does that mean for adding a rock or bacterial bottle qe should add at least a fish or some soure of amonia?

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Chromis

Supporting Member
I can’t imagine the bacteria sitting in a tank without a significant ammonia source is any worse than sitting in the bottle (Brightwells bacteria in a bottle has a >1 year shelf life...) but I’m sure it’s happier with some nutrients...
 

ofzakaria

Supporting Member
I can’t imagine the bacteria sitting in a tank without a significant ammonia source is any worse than sitting in the bottle (Brightwells bacteria in a bottle has a >1 year shelf life...) but I’m sure it’s happier with some nutrients...
Makes you wonder thu..
Dr. Tim is pioneer in this domain and if you read his paper or watch the youtube video he talked about such products and such conditions..

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Squist

Supporting Member
But the vibrant worked like magic. However, I didn't use the product as intended and massively overdosed, so I'm not sure if a regular treatment would work on severe dino infestations.
How much Vibrant to tank volume did you use? I have a bottle sitting on the sidelines.
 

MarAquatic

Supporting Member
Personally tried vibrant with low nutrients on my tank and caused a crash and dinos. I would feed more . Sorry but I dont know what your p04 or no3 level is at but if your at 0 then dinos thrive. For the osteo dino Uv killed it for me in both the nano and my main along with raising nutrients. If your looking to dose nutrients let me know I can kick you some no3 and p04 that I make myself. And no it's not just tree stump remover lol

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ofzakaria

Supporting Member
Working on a plan with @ofzakaria to address the dinos in my so very new tank and document our process and progress along the way. Here's a draft of the document from its starting point: Squist's RSR 250 Dinoflagellate Eradication.
I could not open the link.
I think the easiest way to do this is to update posts, easier than docs.
Why do not you put a post that have your system infos?

Just before we start,
If you have UV let me know, since couple users said UV have helped them. So let me know if you have UV.

If you do not, I wonder if someone here is willing to lend you a UV..
Unfortunately I got rid of my UV long time ago..

Let's start with the following:

- Pictures of the system that shows DT and sump area
- details of the paramaters and your test kits
- details of the equipment and filtration.
- details of your husbandry(feeding, cleaning, water change..ext
- your dosing regimens
- what's the source of your RODI

for preparation(just recommendation, it's up to you):
- get an icp test ready, just let the kit we send it later
- rowaphos--> I have extra I will bring with me when we meet tomorrow
- if you do not use carbon get carbon ready
- there is a product called coral snow, get one bottle
- zeozyme--> do not buy I will bring you some
- we will do water changes if needed so be ready
- test alk, ca, mag po4, no3, salinity but make sure that is reliable, or debugging will be as good as your results accuracy



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MolaMola

Supporting Member
@Squist , actually speaking of biodiverse sand, if you would like a cup of my good stuff, let me know... happy to give you some.

It'll be pest free or at least algae free for sure as it's been in an enclosed rubber tub for like ever.
@NanoCrazed Are you willing to describe your live sand cooking setup? Sealed lid container? Sand immersed in water? No aeration? It can be deep?
 

Squist

Supporting Member
... if your [PO4 is] at 0 then dinos thrive. For the osteo dino Uv killed it for me in both the nano and my main along with raising nutrients. If your looking to dose nutrients let me know I can kick you some no3 and p04 that I make myself. And no it's not just tree stump remover lol
Thanks for your insight. As of today's testing, here's where my tank stands:

Temp: 78 deg. F.
Salinity: 1.026
pH: 8.15 avg.
Alk: 8 

Calcium: 480
Magnesium: 1400
Nitrate: 3
Phosphate:0.06

It's a relatively new system. PO4 was unmeasurable for long time. May be the cause of this, along with dinos being introduced through new additions. But I now have measurable PO4 and it's pretty consistent along with NO3.


Squists RSR250 Parmemters 20120111.png
 

Squist

Supporting Member
I could not open the link.
I think the easiest way to do this is to update posts, easier than docs.
Why do not you put a post that have your system infos?

Just before we start,
If you have UV let me know, since couple users said UV have helped them. So let me know if you have UV.

If you do not, I wonder if someone here is willing to lend you a UV..
Unfortunately I got rid of my UV long time ago..

Let's start with the following:

- Pictures of the system that shows DT and sump area
- details of the paramaters and your test kits
- details of the equipment and filtration.
- details of your husbandry(feeding, cleaning, water change..ext
- your dosing regimens
- what's the source of your RODI

for preparation(just recommendation, it's up to you):
- get an icp test ready, just let the kit we send it later
- rowaphos--> I have extra I will bring with me when we meet tomorrow
- if you do not use carbon get carbon ready
- there is a product called coral snow, get one bottle
- zeozyme--> do not buy I will bring you some
- we will do water changes if needed so be ready
- test alk, ca, mag po4, no3, salinity but make sure that is reliable, or debugging will be as good as your results accuracy

Okay. Got it. I'll bring photos and details for when we meet (they're in that doc I shared; I'll see what's up. It's on Dropbox and maybe I need to change location or permissions.)

I'll start working on preparations. To your suggestions:
  • I do not use carbon--will start getting ready.
  • I'll get coral snow.
  • I have an auto water change system with 14 gallons of water ready (BRS 7-stage RODI system and Reef Crystals salt at-hand for more). I stopped doing water changes Jan 4; changes had been regularly running throughout each day (4x 1 liter) of the week, totaling 10% total volume per week.
  • Tests have been done regularly and I have a history I can share. As of today: alk: 8, ca: 480, mag: 1400, no3: 4, PO4: 0.06, salinity: 35
  • I'll see if I can find a UV system for a 70 gallon system.
Squists RSR250 Parmemters 20120111.png
 

ofzakaria

Supporting Member
Okay. Got it. I'll bring photos and details for when we meet (they're in that doc I shared; I'll see what's up. It's on Dropbox and maybe I need to change location or permissions.)

I'll start working on preparations. To your suggestions:
  • I do not use carbon--will start getting ready.
  • I'll get coral snow.
  • I have an auto water change system with 14 gallons of water ready (BRS 7-stage RODI system and Reef Crystals salt at-hand for more). I stopped doing water changes Jan 4; changes had been regularly running throughout each day (4x 1 liter) of the week, totaling 10% total volume per week.
  • Tests have been done regularly and I have a history I can share. As of today: alk: 8, ca: 480, mag: 1400, no3: 4, PO4: 0.06, salinity: 35
  • I'll see if I can find a UV system for a 70 gallon system.
View attachment 13516
Do not bring photos. Just post the photos on the thread.
I will try to get the link to work again

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MarAquatic

Supporting Member
Thanks for your insight. As of today's testing, here's where my tank stands:

Temp: 78 deg. F.
Salinity: 1.026
pH: 8.15 avg.
Alk: 8 

Calcium: 480
Magnesium: 1400
Nitrate: 3
Phosphate:0.06

It's a relatively new system. PO4 was unmeasurable for long time. May be the cause of this, along with dinos being introduced through new additions. But I now have measurable PO4 and it's pretty consistent along with NO3.


View attachment 13515
Ok well that's good you have p04 now. If you have confirmed you have the Osteo dino UV takes really good care of that. What I did is her a big UV and I run it 247 also during the dino outbreak I added a green killing machine inside my display and slowed the flow at night and turkey basted my sand and rock before bed and in a few days it was gone. Now I have seen some dino in tiny patches but that's when I turned off uv for the treatment of flukes with prazi. So i think they are ever present just but are kept in check by other organisms and the uv along with p04
Also for the time being stop water changes. Dinos seem to flare up after water changes

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Squist

Supporting Member
Do not bring photos. Just post the photos on the thread.
I will try to get the link to work again
Okay... let's see how well I can get this into the site:

SQUISTS RSR SYSTEM BREAKDOWN.png


1. Display Tank

A. Red Sea Reefer 250 (250 liters, 66 gal.)​
B. Radion G4 LED Light​
C. Two Vortech MP10 powerheads​
D. 40 lbs of STAX dry rock, left pillar is cemented together and affixed to plexiglass plate under sand; right rock pile is simply stacked; remainder of rock in sump.​
E. 40 lbs Aragalive sand​

2. Red Sea Reefer Sump and Filtration

A. Vortech Return Pump (small) pre-filtered by Red Sea 100 micron filter socks​
B. On return, a split in the return flows into refugium with 40 MarinePure bio cubes​
C. Red Sea 300 skimmer air supply through CO2 scrubber; skimmer runs in four 3-hour on/off per day as of 1/4/2020. 3. Neptune DOS
 Two Neptune DOS: top provides Part-A/B, bottom performs automatic water changes. Water changes have been stopped (1/4/2020); prior, this system performed 4 1-liter changes per day, 6 hours apart.​

3. DOS System for Part A-B and auto water change

4. B-Ionic Part-A/B Calcium/Alk Supplementation 
 30 ml each per day total through 3 supplement cycles, 8-hours apart. Connected to Neptune DOS (see 3.)

5. RODI Source Water Filtration
 BRS 7-stage with TDS. Pressure 50 psi, source TDS < 5, output TDS 0.

6. Water Storage

A. Two 14 gal vats of saturated kalkwasser; lasts 3-4 weeks.​
B. One 14 gal vat of replacement water mixed with Reef Crystals @ 1.026​
 
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Squist

Supporting Member
[...] just but are kept in check by other organisms and the uv along with p04. Also for the time being stop water changes. Dinos seem to flare up after water changes
This is sounding promising. I'm starting to get a good understanding of dinos and balance v. imbalance in reef aquaria. Where the last 6 mos has been number chasing while getting through the initial cycle, now it's a 360 degree multi-factor bio balancing act.

I have stopped my auto water changes. Thanks for making that point. Helps confirm other feedback I'm reading and receiving.

Thanks for sharing your suggestions.
 

NanoCrazed

Supporting Member
@NanoCrazed Are you willing to describe your live sand cooking setup? Sealed lid container? Sand immersed in water? No aeration? It can be deep?
Heh... it's pretty straightforward...

I use one of those black HDX home depot containers with the yellow lid, which is thick enough not to let light through to prevent algae growth. The lid isn't air tight so allows for air exchange.

Basically, any old wet sand I get from various tanks, mine and other folks', i will toss in there. Whenever I get any dry sand, I'll through in there as well to make live sand.

About once a blue moon, I check to make sure there is enough water that covers the sand by about 3" minimum. Along the same lines, i will also stir the sand and skim off the water now and then, and add some tank water from changes to replace.

So far, my cooked sand contains sand from purchased lots of live sand, my various tanks, several LFS especially from T&T in SJ when the owner retired, and few other reefers. Now and then, i might throw a few LR rubble pieces into the pot as well if I don't want it to go to waste.

To me, my pot of sand is the best starter around. As long as I have enough, I can stand up a tank on the fly with nearly instant cycle.

I use to leave the bin in the garage but have since moved it outdoors under the shade of several redwoods in my yard.
 

ofzakaria

Supporting Member
Okay... let's see how well I can get this into the site:

View attachment 13519

1. Display Tank

A. Red Sea Reefer 250 (250 liters, 66 gal.)​
B. Radion G4 LED Light​
C. Two Vortech MP10 powerheads​
D. 40 lbs of STAX dry rock, left pillar is cemented together and affixed to plexiglass plate under sand; right rock pile is simply stacked; remainder of rock in sump.​
E. 40 lbs Aragalive sand​

2. Red Sea Reefer Sump and Filtration

A. Vortech Return Pump (small) pre-filtered by Red Sea 100 micron filter socks​
B. On return, a split in the return flows into refugium with 40 MarinePure bio cubes​
C. Red Sea 300 skimmer air supply through CO2 scrubber; skimmer runs in four 3-hour on/off per day as of 1/4/2020. 3. Neptune DOS
 Two Neptune DOS: top provides Part-A/B, bottom performs automatic water changes. Water changes have been stopped (1/4/2020); prior, this system performed 4 1-liter changes per day, 6 hours apart.​

3. DOS System for Part A-B and auto water change

4. B-Ionic Part-A/B Calcium/Alk Supplementation 
 30 ml each per day total through 3 supplement cycles, 8-hours apart. Connected to Neptune DOS (see 3.)

5. RODI Source Water Filtration
 BRS 7-stage with TDS. Pressure 50 psi, source TDS < 5, output TDS 0.

6. Water Storage

A. Two 14 gal vats of saturated kalkwasser; lasts 3-4 weeks.​
B. One 14 gal vat of replacement water mixed with Reef Crystals @ 1.026​
Wow you have so much going on in the sump area.how do you mean that? Are it you worried of the food leftovers in all these rocks that will sit to decay over time?
Socks look dirty, do you clean the socks?

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ofzakaria

Supporting Member
Heh... it's pretty straightforward...

I use one of those black HDX home depot containers with the yellow lid, which is thick enough not to let light through to prevent algae growth. The lid isn't air tight so allows for air exchange.

Basically, any old wet sand I get from various tanks, mine and other folks', i will toss in there. Whenever I get any dry sand, I'll through in there as well to make live sand.

About once a blue moon, I check to make sure there is enough water that covers the sand by about 3" minimum. Along the same lines, i will also stir the sand and skim off the water now and then, and add some tank water from changes to replace.

So far, my cooked sand contains sand from purchased lots of live sand, my various tanks, several LFS especially from T&T in SJ when the owner retired, and few other reefers. Now and then, i might throw a few LR rubble pieces into the pot as well if I don't want it to go to waste.

To me, my pot of sand is the best starter around. As long as I have enough, I can stand up a tank on the fly with nearly instant cycle.

I use to leave the bin in the garage but have since moved it outdoors under the shade of several redwoods in my yard.
Curious if you do water change on this mixture of sand? Have you ever checked for things lile silica?


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NanoCrazed

Supporting Member
Curious if you do water change on this mixture of sand? Have you ever checked for things lile silica?


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I occassionally stir the sand and change out the water. My assumption is that the old tank water will supply some modest amount of food, and ensures semi stable salinity to counter evaporation.

You'd be amazed at how gross the water is after a few months

I never test the water however...

One thing I do is stir the sand and let it settle a bit before using to let any hydrogen sulfide gas escape due the anaerobic bacteria at work due to the deep sandbed conditions as my tub has at least 6-8" of sand at any given time
 

NanoCrazed

Supporting Member
Interesting side note... on one occasion, i found a plug with a bit of tissue still present after like 9 months of being buried so out of curiosity, i just threw it in the tank and watched it over time.

Actually grew into something (forget what exactly). Amazing how resilient some sea life can be.
 
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