Kessil

BAR Bio-Transplants?

Squist

Supporting Member
Wow you have so much going on in the sump area.how do you mean that? Are it you worried of the food leftovers in all these rocks that will sit to decay over time?

Socks look dirty, do you clean the socks?
Thanks for your feedback. It’s temporary. I pulled rock out of the display and placed in sump to get it out of the way for me to more easily vacuum the sand. And fewer rocks to harbor dinos and need to be cleaned. I jiggle the few rocks in the sump and stir that chamber from time to time. NO3 and PO4 suggest I’m in OK territory for what’s in the tank, right?

The photo was most likely taken after a 3-4 day run. Yes, filter socks dirty. They get swapped out with a clean set 2x a week on day 3 or 4.

There’s also a filter media basket seen in the pic that’s full of rubble.

It’s a small footprint so it looks pretty tight. But all in all there seems to be good flow through it and not much detritus collecting.
 

ofzakaria

Supporting Member
Heh... it's pretty straightforward...

I use one of those black HDX home depot containers with the yellow lid, which is thick enough not to let light through to prevent algae growth. The lid isn't air tight so allows for air exchange.

Basically, any old wet sand I get from various tanks, mine and other folks', i will toss in there. Whenever I get any dry sand, I'll through in there as well to make live sand.

About once a blue moon, I check to make sure there is enough water that covers the sand by about 3" minimum. Along the same lines, i will also stir the sand and skim off the water now and then, and add some tank water from changes to replace.

So far, my cooked sand contains sand from purchased lots of live sand, my various tanks, several LFS especially from T&T in SJ when the owner retired, and few other reefers. Now and then, i might throw a few LR rubble pieces into the pot as well if I don't want it to go to waste.

To me, my pot of sand is the best starter around. As long as I have enough, I can stand up a tank on the fly with nearly instant cycle.

I use to leave the bin in the garage but have since moved it outdoors under the shade of several redwoods in my yard.
Do you airiat your sand inside the HDX?
According to the article I referenced dissolved oxygen is important..not sure if this simply mean no notrificatiom or the bacteria population will take a hit with low DO..


"Dissolved Oxygen

Maximum nitrification rates will exist if dissolved oxygen (DO) levels exceed 80% saturation. Nitrification will not occur if DO concentrations drop to 2.0 mg/l (ppm) or less. Nitrobacter is more strongly affected by low DO than NITROSOMONAS."


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NanoCrazed

Supporting Member
Do you airiat your sand inside the HDX?
According to the article I referenced dissolved oxygen is important..not sure if this simply mean no notrificatiom or the bacteria population will take a hit with low DO..


"Dissolved Oxygen

Maximum nitrification rates will exist if dissolved oxygen (DO) levels exceed 80% saturation. Nitrification will not occur if DO concentrations drop to 2.0 mg/l (ppm) or less. Nitrobacter is more strongly affected by low DO than NITROSOMONAS."


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Not actively by definition. The sand gets whatever amount of air the leaks through the gaps.

So far, based on 2+ years of fumbling, there hasn't been an observable negative impact
 

NanoCrazed

Supporting Member
A thought on the dino battle... read somewhere that dinos don't do well in blue light. I tried this previously with some good success.

More recently, I thought I would try to accelerate things by using H2O2 3% dosing... seem to work to a degree, except gotta be careful. I was tired this morning and distracted so wound up dosing 10X the dose. my urchin just died. but other life forms seem to be pissed but hanging in there.

in case you wanna try any of these. Next up, I will throw in a cup of my good stuff and see if that does anything to balance my system
 

Squist

Supporting Member
A thought on the dino battle... read somewhere that dinos don't do well in blue light. I tried this previously with some good success.

More recently, I thought I would try to accelerate things by using H2O2 3% dosing... seem to work to a degree, except gotta be careful. I was tired this morning and distracted so wound up dosing 10X the dose. my urchin just died. but other life forms seem to be pissed but hanging in there.

in case you wanna try any of these. Next up, I will throw in a cup of my good stuff and see if that does anything to balance my system
Thanks for sharing your process and progress with yours. I've been reading about H2O2. And good to know that when an urchin looks like it might be a goner just give it time.

As for my lighting, mid-November I blacked-out my tank for 72 hrs. Then I turned off all red spectrum from my light, jacked-up the blue, and shortened the photoperiod. I think it's helping and may be related to recent improvement. (Factor: light)

Squists RSR 250 - Light Period and Spectrum 20200115.png


Also of note: since I hooked up CO2 scrubber my pH is averaging at 8.15. When the tank was looking much worse (Oct-Nov) average was 8.0. (Factor: pH)

As my tank is just recently launched (7 mos.), I am concentrating on bio, bacteria, and basics like physical removal through vacuuming. Even without altering the chemistry or nutrients since I started the thread I am seeing improvement. There is noticeably a slower rate of return of dino's "dusting" on rocks and sand. Slow enough that it doesn't have the time to turn into wafts of slimy bubble ooze. I vacuum rocks and sand, and change filter socks every 3-4 days. (Factor: physical removal of dinos)

I met @ofzakaria last weekend and got some great tips and suggestions. An ICP test was one of several. I thought that was mostly used for established tanks so didn't really consider it until now. It'll be a great baseline and I'll have these results by end-of-month. (Factor: chemistry)

Once I get that, given that understanding and the observable situation at that time, I'll start charting which direction to go. Remaining confident the tank's still on the right path. Many factors. More I've yet to be introduced I bet. Looking forward to their working FOR ME and not against.
 

NanoCrazed

Supporting Member
so... after not having much luck with peroxide dosing to my dino problem, I just added a cup of sand from my brew to test out the diversity theory. Unfortunately, I have no idea how long this might take but will monitor and report...

To make this a clean test, I am stopping other methods and going to let the tank play out... *fingers crossed*. So many tanks, yet this is the one that has the most issues (work IM20) where I tried to be the most cautious. ironic.
 

ofzakaria

Supporting Member
so... after not having much luck with peroxide dosing to my dino problem, I just added a cup of sand from my brew to test out the diversity theory. Unfortunately, I have no idea how long this might take but will monitor and report...

To make this a clean test, I am stopping other methods and going to let the tank play out... *fingers crossed*. So many tanks, yet this is the one that has the most issues (work IM20) where I tried to be the most cautious. ironic.
Following with interst..pls keep us all posted

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NanoCrazed

Supporting Member
Day 1 after my magic sand... dinos still present... BUT the regrowth has been dramatically slowed. Before in less than a day i would get thick wispy mats of dino regrowth even after blowing and/or stirring... but now, despite return, it looks like a thin film (semi transparent). I just sprinkle some of my magic sand on top. Very encouraging sign, albeit early.

yesterday:
1579905011145.png


Today:

1579905094287.png
 

Squist

Supporting Member
A day of maintenance on the tank today and I received my ICP test results. Here's what's happening on the dino-bio front:

- Dinos are fairly well under control with vacuuming gravel on 3rd or 4th day of week when changing filter socks. Every couple days I take a photo with the magnifying scope in the same location. They seem to be in the same general growth cycle and unable to take a strong hold since I am around. When I was away for a couple weeks in October, when I came back gravel looked like @NanoCrazed 's in photo above.

Before vacuuming after 3-4 days since last time:
1580019824372.jpeg

After vacuuming, edge of tank, midlevel in gravel, magnified 1000x (maybe 1000x -- the USB scope's product description claims 40x to 1000x. Maybe it is):
1580019538416.jpeg



- I received my first ICP test results this evening. What a great service! Here are the results: https://www.triton-lab.de/en/showroom/icp-oes/97346. Some areas of the results that stand out:

High Levels:​
x Si is off the chart @ 3572 µg/l. I'm using a new BRS RODI system with 0 TDS. (Wondering if it's the dry rock?)​
x Li is high, there's tin in the system, and some copper.​
x There's some other stuff of concern in the report too. I'm still reviewing...​
Low Levels:​
x Lack of potassium, strontium, molybdenum, vanadium, zinc. So much for my auto waterchanges taking care of this. I should confirm what's in Reef Crystals and pick-up some supplements.​
Other​
x PO4 is 0.025 from the water sample drawn last Monday 1/20. Today, 1/25, on my Hanna it read 0.06. So it's in the right ballpark.​


- I met up with @ofzakaria a couple weeks ago, took his advice on the ICP test and stocked up on some products he recommended for possible next steps. Products include:

x Korallen-Zucht CoralSnow
x Korallen-Zucht ZeoBak Microorganism Solution
@ofsakaria also set me up with some Triton Detox to use if needed, if the ICP lab test results suggest necessary. We wanted to get the ICP test results back before taking steps with ZeoBak and CoralSnow. Though, I have dosed three times 3 drops of ZeoBak since I received it. CoralSnow, not yet.


- I met up with @ashburn2k (turns out we're not far from one another) and picked up from him a 25W Aqua Ultraviolet Classic UV Sterilizer. It needed some cleaning and a bulb but otherwise gaskets and everything in great shape. I'm in the process of installing the sterilizer today but the pump I bought is too powerful. I'm going to check-down the flow a few hundred gallons/hr to hit a sweet spot of 1200-800 GPH per Aqua Ultraviolet's documentation.

Screen Shot 2020-01-25 at 10.10.55 PM.png

(https://aquaultraviolet.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/UV-Charts-Salt-and-Fresh-Water-Web.pdf)


- I've been in touch with @NanoCrazed and hope to get a scoop of his 'good stuff' live sand next time I'm in his neck of the woods. More biodiversity will be a good thing.


1580020690845.jpeg

Another shot from the scope. It's $20 well spent. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07SR7YPV5/
 

ofzakaria

Supporting Member
A day of maintenance on the tank today and I received my ICP test results. Here's what's happening on the dino-bio front:

- Dinos are fairly well under control with vacuuming gravel on 3rd or 4th day of week when changing filter socks. Every couple days I take a photo with the magnifying scope in the same location. They seem to be in the same general growth cycle and unable to take a strong hold since I am around. When I was away for a couple weeks in October, when I came back gravel looked like @NanoCrazed 's in photo above.

Before vacuuming after 3-4 days since last time:
View attachment 13828
After vacuuming, edge of tank, midlevel in gravel, magnified 1000x (maybe 1000x -- the USB scope's product description claims 40x to 1000x. Maybe it is):
View attachment 13827


- I received my first ICP test results this evening. What a great service! Here are the results: https://www.triton-lab.de/en/showroom/icp-oes/97346. Some areas of the results that stand out:

High Levels:​
x Si is off the chart @ 3572 µg/l. I'm using a new BRS RODI system with 0 TDS. (Wondering if it's the dry rock?)​
x Li is high, there's tin in the system, and some copper.​
x There's some other stuff of concern in the report too. I'm still reviewing...​
Low Levels:​
x Lack of potassium, strontium, molybdenum, vanadium, zinc. So much for my auto waterchanges taking care of this. I should confirm what's in Reef Crystals and pick-up some supplements.​
Other​
x PO4 is 0.025 from the water sample drawn last Monday 1/20. Today, 1/25, on my Hanna it read 0.06. So it's in the right ballpark.​


- I met up with @ofzakaria a couple weeks ago, took his advice on the ICP test and stocked up on some products he recommended for possible next steps. Products include:

x Korallen-Zucht CoralSnow
x Korallen-Zucht ZeoBak Microorganism Solution
@ofsakaria also set me up with some Triton Detox to use if needed, if the ICP lab test results suggest necessary. We wanted to get the ICP test results back before taking steps with ZeoBak and CoralSnow. Though, I have dosed three times 3 drops of ZeoBak since I received it. CoralSnow, not yet.


- I met up with @ashburn2k (turns out we're not far from one another) and picked up from him a 25W Aqua Ultraviolet Classic UV Sterilizer. It needed some cleaning and a bulb but otherwise gaskets and everything in great shape. I'm in the process of installing the sterilizer today but the pump I bought is too powerful. I'm going to check-down the flow a few hundred gallons/hr to hit a sweet spot of 1200-800 GPH per Aqua Ultraviolet's documentation.

View attachment 13826
(https://aquaultraviolet.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/UV-Charts-Salt-and-Fresh-Water-Web.pdf)


- I've been in touch with @NanoCrazed and hope to get a scoop of his 'good stuff' live sand next time I'm in his neck of the woods. More biodiversity will be a good thing.


View attachment 13829
Another shot from the scope. It's $20 well spent. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07SR7YPV5/
Are you dpsong zeoback? You should not dose zeobak randomly like that. How are you dosing it?

I did not recommend you use zeobak. At all.

I gave you some zeozyme and speaificly asked you not to use it before we talk. So I explain to you how to use it..

If you remember I told you, if you want to experiment do it before we start using zeozyme...


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Last edited:

ofzakaria

Supporting Member
Oh wow you have high silicon, high tin amd high lithium.
Remember when I told you dino thrive in high silica environment..
High silica will promot dino
High tin and lithium will hurt coral and can be poisonous to animals.

You need to find out what is leaching all these elements. Check for metals, check for marine pure, check for silicon or flex tubing.


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NanoCrazed

Supporting Member
Oh wow you have high silicon, high tin amd high lithium.
Remember when I told you dino thrive in high silica environment..
High silica will promot dino
High tin and lithium will hurt coral and can be poisonous to animals.

You need to find out what is leaching all these elements. Check for metals, check for marine pure, check for silicon or flex tubing.


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@ofzakaria marine pure has been mentioned to leach aluminum/alumina but not silica... so don't think that would be it...
 

Squist

Supporting Member
Oh wow you have high silicon, high tin amd high lithium.
Remember when I told you dino thrive in high silica environment..
High silica will promot dino
High tin and lithium will hurt coral and can be poisonous to animals.

You need to find out what is leaching all these elements. Check for metals, check for marine pure, check for silicon or flex tubing.


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This is going to be tough one to figure out. The system is new-out-of-box. You’re right—I’ll need to figure this out.The theory about MatinePure had to do with aluminum as I recall. I have no Al and marinepure cubes since the system was first cycled.

I have a pair of tweezers that are showing some rust. A cheap “stainless” tweezer off of amazon. I don’t leave in the tank but that’s the first thing thatcomes to mind.

The high silicon I’m attributing to the dry rock. Again... new out of box. Will look into some approaches for this.
 

ofzakaria

Supporting Member
This is going to be tough one to figure out. The system is new-out-of-box. You’re right—I’ll need to figure this out.The theory about MatinePure had to do with aluminum as I recall. I have no Al and marinepure cubes since the system was first cycled.

I have a pair of tweezers that are showing some rust. A cheap “stainless” tweezer off of amazon. I don’t leave in the tank but that’s the first thing thatcomes to mind.

The high silicon I’m attributing to the dry rock. Again... new out of box. Will look into some approaches for this.
I do not think the silica from rocks..but anything possible, if the rocks have some coating or something...
Am concerned about the dosing your described.
Are you really dosing zeobak? Why?

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Squist

Supporting Member
Are you dpsong zeoback? You should not dose zeobak randomly like that. How are you dosing it?
per the label for bacteria supplement. A drop per 20 gal; 3 drops 2x a week

I did not recommend you use zeobak. At all.
Must have been someone else.


I gave you some zeozyme and speaificly asked you not to use it before we talk. So I explain to you how to use it... If you remember I told you, if you want to experiment do it before we start using zeozyme...
Right. That and Detox. Haven’t touched them.
 

ofzakaria

Supporting Member
per the label for bacteria supplement. A drop per 20 gal; 3 drops 2x a week



Must have been someone else.




Right. That and Detox. Haven’t touched them.
Am worried dosing zeobak like that will get you in to a revolving door with cyano and diatom.
Zeobak should be dosed in zeovit system with zeolites and zeostart(the carbon source for the zeobak to thrive) otherwise bacteria will not survive and just die and provide carbon source for other bacteria.
Also when you use UV zeobak bacteria will die which again, more carbon source for dino and cyano to thrive..

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ofzakaria

Supporting Member
Why do not you do one thing at a time. Why all at once. Am just worried You are creating imbalance on multiple joints of the bio system and adding variables that some of which are opposit to each other..

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Squist

Supporting Member
Biggest concern right now for me is the ICP test results. The system, otherwise, is looking pretty good on the algae front.

For the UV, from what I understand, bacteria colonize on surface areas and should be ok. Yeah, if in flowing water, ok, zap! And the flow rate through the sterilizer being high enough (per the manual) should affect algae and not desirable phytoplankton. I’m angling towards give UV a shot while addressing silica, tin, and low trace elements.

Thanks for the ICP tip. The results provide a lot of clarity.
 
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