Featured Club rules updated (reverted 6/3)

[tribbitt]

I do not see how an LFS taking on risk is meaningfully different from a hobbyist taking on the same risk, from the animal’s perspective. The animal is subjected to the same stress in either case.

To support this I would need to see that LFS practices are actually more effective than a hobbyist can support, NOT that the LFS is absorbing the risk (which is an extremely appreciated service to the community, but not something I think should be mandatory).

 

[BAYMAC]

I'm not taking this hard, just pointing out what I see. But, I'll keep to myself if this is the attitude I'm going to get.
Peace.

One comment that doesn't agree with you, and you bounce? I was pointing out what I saw, just like you.

 

[robert4025]

I do not see how an LFS taking on risk is meaningfully different from a hobbyist taking on the same risk, from the animal’s perspective. The animal is subjected to the same stress in either case.

To support this I would need to see that LFS practices are actually more effective than a hobbyist can support, NOT that the LFS is absorbing the risk (which is an extremely appreciated service to the community, but not something I think should be mandatory).

These are fair points and I genuinely respect the transparency. But I think the distinction goes a little deeper than just who absorbs the financial risk.

A reputable LFS brings something that’s hard to replicate at the individual level — quarantine systems, trained staff, established acclimation protocols, and the ability to monitor animals consistently.

But here’s the part that often gets overlooked: when a shipment is acclimated properly in a controlled batch environment, survival rates go up significantly. You’re not just saving one coral — you’re saving the whole batch.

That’s a meaningful difference, not just for the animals, but for the value the entire community receives from that shipment.

A hobbyist acclimating individually doesn’t have that same margin for error. And when losses happen at that stage, the impact is real — for the animal, for the hobbyist, and for the hobby itself.

This was never about burdening anyone or making things unnecessarily complicated. It was always about giving these animals the best possible chance during their most vulnerable window.

When cost savings start taking priority over that window of care, we may feel like we’re winning in the short term — but the long term cost to the animals and to this community is much harder to recover from.

 

[tribbitt]

These are fair points and I genuinely respect the transparency. But I think the distinction goes a little deeper than just who absorbs the financial risk.

A reputable LFS brings something that’s hard to replicate at the individual level — quarantine systems, trained staff, established acclimation protocols, and the ability to monitor animals consistently.

But here’s the part that often gets overlooked: when a shipment is acclimated properly in a controlled batch environment, survival rates go up significantly. You’re not just saving one coral — you’re saving the whole batch.

That’s a meaningful difference, not just for the animals, but for the value the entire community receives from that shipment.

A hobbyist acclimating individually doesn’t have that same margin for error. And when losses happen at that stage, the impact is real — for the animal, for the hobbyist, and for the hobby itself.

This was never about burdening anyone or making things unnecessarily complicated. It was always about giving these animals the best possible chance during their most vulnerable window.

When cost savings start taking priority over that window of care, we may feel like we’re winning in the short term — but the long term cost to the animals and to this community is much harder to recover from.

For any given animal or coral, what difference is there in the way you care for it compared to how an experienced hobbyist would?

Are hobbyist tanks not also stable? I imagine (could be wrong) that store tanks are if anything a bit less stable because there is a constant flux of organisms coming in and out of them

 

[PjFish]

So dependent but the combined knowledge of all the working LFS employees may give livestock an upper hand on care and survival rates. But not sure if this task is only assigned to one experienced employee or several since theres so many things to do maintaining a shop. Plus especially hard to find skilled experienced employees nowadays. This is where I feel remorse for LFS owners when I interact with staff who are either new or have no idea what their talking about nor will not seek advice from fellow employees or managers. This does reflect on the LFS but hopefully experienced reefers and fish hobbyists contact management after so they can educate and correct their employees providing better livestock care and service. Otherwise from LFS to Hobbyists we mostly all use the same water and equipment. The problem I do see is new hobbyists and LFS employees relying on google,chat gdp, Ai etc instead of grabbing a proven book or reading published research papers or articles!! The more they google info and issues the more they keep changing their tanks constantly taking the quick route which most of the time isn’t the best way lol..LFS used to have a larger section dedicated for literature and books instead now of a magazine or two at the checkout counter. A printed handout of recommended published books would be nice oh man think I went off topic again!!

 

[robert4025]

For any given animal or coral, what difference is there in the way you care for it compared to how an experienced hobbyist would?

Are hobbyist tanks not also stable? I imagine (could be wrong) that store tanks are if anything a bit less stable because there is a constant flux of organisms coming in and out of them

At this point I feel like I’m repeating myself, and I’ll let over 20 years of work speak for itself rather than defend my credentials again. But I’ll take the bait one more time — just for the sake of the conversation. And because I am bored…

The meaningful difference, from the animal’s perspective, is simple: a reputable LFS has the ability to save more of them during the most critical and dangerous window — the transition period before they ever reach a hobbyist’s hands. Full stop.

If you want concrete, meaningful evidence of why I believe this is the right approach, I sincerely invite you to come see it firsthand — we’re actually accepting applications. Come join the team, and I’ll personally show you what responsible transition and care looks like from the inside. Short of that, we’re simply going in circles — and I think this community deserves better than that. So with that, I’ll leave everyone with my final thoughts on this thread.

 

[robert4025]

There are two schools of thought colliding in this club.

On one side, the longtime reef keepers want to honor the club’s original mission. That philosophy is principled, well-intentioned, and frankly, it worked — it inspired clubs like Northern Valley Reefers and Central Valley Reefers to form under similar guidelines. Richard (Thales), Gresham, Jeremy, Arnold, and many others built something meaningful here. Richard especially has put enormous effort into promoting responsible reef keeping on a global scale, and he’s still going strong. Watching that legacy quietly erode is genuinely disheartening. Those were the golden years of this hobby, when new enthusiasts seemed endless. Our hobby has shrunk considerably since then — and so change, like it or not, is inevitable.

On the other side, a new generation is making their voices heard. They may lack long-term perspective, but they engage constructively, and their concerns about practicality, cost, and transparency are legitimate. Without new blood, this hobby simply withers. My concern, however, is that this newer mindset can be short-sighted — when cost savings begin taking priority over animal welfare, we end up trading the long game for short-term convenience.

BAR’s mission is clear: to promote, foster, and encourage education and appreciation for the ethical husbandry and propagation of marine life. This is what I signed up for. This has always been my guiding principle, and at the end of the day, both generations share that same goal.

The disagreement seems to be about method, not purpose — and that’s a solvable problem, I think.

For newer members: understand why the standards exist before focusing on cost or convenience. They were built on hard lessons learned over many years. If the cost of properly caring for an animal feels prohibitive, the answer is to wait — not to cut corners. Seek out experienced reefers. That wisdom doesn’t always live online; it lives in the people right here in this community.

For the old guard: meet the new generation where they are. The mission is timeless, but how we communicate it needs to evolve. Build mentorship programs, beginner workshops, and educational pathways that naturally pass the club’s values from one generation to the next. Celebrate progress when you see it. And above all, protect the mission by living it — visibly, generously, and consistently. Your greatest tool has never been the rules. It’s always been example.

Both sides ultimately want the same thing — for this hobby and these animals to thrive. If every debate in this club can be brought back to one simple question — “Does this promote ethical husbandry and propagation of marine life?” — then the mission statement stops being a relic of the past and becomes a living compass that both generations can follow together.

I think that is how you honor what was built here without being imprisoned by it.

Happy Reefing Everyone.

— Robert

 

[iani]

One look at an average dbtc chain will tell everyone here how good the average hobbyist is at keeping coral alive. I'll leave it at that. With that said I don't feel strongly myself one way or the other.

 

[RandyC]

One look at an average dbtc chain will tell everyone here how good the average hobbyist is at keeping coral alive. I'll leave it at that. With that said I don't feel strongly myself one way or the other.

I'd argue that DBTC is not a good example. It's hardly been a successful program and most people that participate are one and done members. How many BAR members that participated in a DBTC are actually even still members?

 

[Thales]

"There are two schools of thought colliding in this club.

On one side, the longtime reef keepers want to honor the club’s original mission. That philosophy is principled, well-intentioned, and frankly, it worked — it inspired clubs like Northern Valley Reefers and Central Valley Reefers to form under similar guidelines. Richard (Thales), Gresham, Jeremy, Arnold, and many others built something meaningful here. Richard especially has put enormous effort into promoting responsible reef keeping on a global scale, and he’s still going strong. Watching that legacy quietly erode is genuinely disheartening. Those were the golden years of this hobby, when new enthusiasts seemed endless. Our hobby has shrunk considerably since then — and so change, like it or not, is inevitable.

On the other side, a new generation is making their voices heard. They may lack long-term perspective, but they engage constructively, and their concerns about practicality, cost, and transparency are legitimate. Without new blood, this hobby simply withers. My concern, however, is that this newer mindset can be short-sighted — when cost savings begin taking priority over animal welfare, we end up trading the long game for short-term convenience.

BAR’s mission is clear: to promote, foster, and encourage education and appreciation for the ethical husbandry and propagation of marine life. This is what I signed up for. This has always been my guiding principle, and at the end of the day, both generations share that same goal.

The disagreement seems to be about method, not purpose — and that’s a solvable problem, I think.

For newer members: understand why the standards exist before focusing on cost or convenience. They were built on hard lessons learned over many years. If the cost of properly caring for an animal feels prohibitive, the answer is to wait — not to cut corners. Seek out experienced reefers. That wisdom doesn’t always live online; it lives in the people right here in this community.

For the old guard: meet the new generation where they are. The mission is timeless, but how we communicate it needs to evolve. Build mentorship programs, beginner workshops, and educational pathways that naturally pass the club’s values from one generation to the next. Celebrate progress when you see it. And above all, protect the mission by living it — visibly, generously, and consistently. Your greatest tool has never been the rules. It’s always been example.

Both sides ultimately want the same thing — for this hobby and these animals to thrive. If every debate in this club can be brought back to one simple question — “Does this promote ethical husbandry and propagation of marine life?” — then the mission statement stops being a relic of the past and becomes a living compass that both generations can follow together.

I think that is how you honor what was built here without being imprisoned by it.

Happy Reefing Everyone.

— Robert"

Thank you so much for the kind words Robert!

One of the biggest issuses in reefing clubs is saving money. It always has been. Sadly saving money and animal health do not often go hand in hand. We thought long and hard about the mission statement of BAR, giveng the broader reef comunity and the birth of BAR from BARE;" The purpose of the organization is to promote, foster, and encourage education and appreciation for the ethical husbandry and propagation of marine life; and to acquire and own such property as may be necessary for any or all of the forgoing purposes." There is purposefully nother in there about affordability or money because those are the kinds of issues that dilute the mission. The reason we decided to charge dues was to intentionally put a barrier up to stop folks who care more about cash than the mission statement from overrunning the club - there are more folks like that out there than folks wo care about the mission. We intentionally made the club 'not for everyone' because you cannot please everyone, and, even worse, there are fewer folks that support the mission than there are folks that do support the mission. Not all LFS support the mission. Not all importers support the mission. We spent money the club made on things that benefit the members instead of building up a huge bank account. "Ethical husbandry" is core to the club as it was founded, when that wanes, the club is directionless. But because it is core to the mission, this club has survived when so many others have not. Seriously, they are almost all gone. To support the mission, decisions get made that not everyone likes, but that is the job - again, the job is not to please the most people or everyone, it is to support the mission. The club isn't for everyone, but it is here to try to inspire and help everyone, including the animals.
This all somehow seems important to echo from Robert in this thread at this time.

Regardign the current discussion of rules, I don't have much to say right now because I haven't been keeping up on how, what, and why the club is doing around sponsors and partners (If I pay to much attention, I feel like I step on the toes of the current BOD that have enough to deal with without me wading in unasked - though I am happy to talk about anything regarding the club almost anytime). These kinds of rules are complicated and it can be hard to predict responses and reactions, so it is not uncommon to float a position and then rejigger it.

Ok, first day of interzoo, gotta run. Love and respect to all here.

Rich

 

[Alexander1312]

Ok, first day of interzoo, gotta run. Love and respect to all here.

Rich

The only time of the year I would rather be in Germany than in CA.

 

[PjFish]

At this point I feel like I’m repeating myself, and I’ll let over 20 years of work speak for itself rather than defend my credentials again. But I’ll take the bait one more time — just for the sake of the conversation. And because I am bored…

The meaningful difference, from the animal’s perspective, is simple: a reputable LFS has the ability to save more of them during the most critical and dangerous window — the transition period before they ever reach a hobbyist’s hands. Full stop.

If you want concrete, meaningful evidence of why I believe this is the right approach, I sincerely invite you to come see it firsthand — we’re actually accepting applications. Come join the team, and I’ll personally show you what responsible transition and care looks like from the inside. Short of that, we’re simply going in circles — and I think this community deserves better than that. So with that, I’ll leave everyone with my final thoughts on this thread.

Your business along with only a couple others here in the Bay Area can’t be compared to 99 percent of most all the LFS in the greater Bay Area, Central Valley, Foothills etc..! People do not see what happens behind the lines. Inexperienced front facing staff, dirty displays with sick or bleached livestock at most other LFS give a bad rap thus giving the impression to most home hobbyists that they are better and can do better which in some cases very true. I believe most of the comments in this thread regarding who can provide better husbandry are comparing other LFS who do not follow stricter guidelines which you have mentioned as well. Plus anyone even new hobbyists can drastically see the proof or differences upon stepping into your business or the other select few others LFS practicing the best husbandry possible for their animals. During covid ordered fish twice online from a large local chain and a large online vendor saltwater fish within the same week who I assumed used local distributors. But after strongly believe both were a transshipment from indonesia or somewhere since new labels were just on top of the original shipping label. Strange tape, Indonesian and Chinese publications packed around the bags of fish. Needless to say they were DOA so that was my first and last online purchase ever.

 

[PjFish]

The only time of the year I would rather be in Germany than in CA.

I second Wiesn!

 

[iani]

I'd argue that DBTC is not a good example. It's hardly been a successful program and most people that participate are one and done members. How many BAR members that participated in a DBTC are actually even still members?

Idk, I bet if we were to actually go through it most coral in dbtc actually dies and it's not that people move away from BAR.

 

[spuri87]

During covid ordered fish twice online from a large local chain and a large online vendor saltwater fish within the same week who I assumed used local distributors. But after strongly believe both were a transshipment from indonesia or somewhere since new labels were just on top of the original shipping label. Strange tape, Indonesian and Chinese publications packed around the bags of fish. Needless to say they were DOA so that was my first and last online purchase ever.

Thanks @PjFish for sharing this horrid experience with us.. with all due respect, after this incident, did you feel you were ‘unethical’ coz you ordered fish online and they died coz of the stress during transshipping? Did you take the entire blame on yourself that if you hadnt ordered the fish, they would probably be still alive or just decided not to order online in future and moved on? Please don't take it personally, you know how I feel about you. I genuinely want to know. If people learn after getting their hands burnt, let it be.. they wont probably partake in another bag lot sale if they think the chances of the livestock surviving is vastly different when buying at a LFS looking at them inside a glass instead of plastic bag.. but there is no reason to call this activity unethical.

I can’t speak for everyone, but it was never about saving money for me personally when I started replying to this thread.. it was about putting an ‘unethical’ label on people who participate in this activity, when almost everyone in this group has ordered at least some form of living stock online without knowing if they were transshipped or worshipped (pun intended).. it was about enforcing a rule that more than half the people in the group don’t agree to without asking them for their opinions.. it was about being inclusive and transparent to everyone in this group. Yes, if members save some $$$ in the process, let it be.

I am all in favor of ethical husbandry and loved reading comments from @robert4025 and @Thales about how much this means to both of them.. you both have achieved unprecedented success in this domain and your success can't be matched.. Neptune and HTA are always the 1st stores you hear about when you start your reefing journey.. respect is earned over time, and Neptune is certainly 1 of the most respected stores around.. Arguing if a LFS can take care of the livestock better than an experienced reefer is a moot point for me, as it is totally subjective.. And the amount of effort LFS puts in behind the scenes is unfathomable but so is an experienced reefer taking care of their fish! But putting a label on bag lot sales and calling it unethical is beyond my understanding.

I will repeat myself, Ethics is a thin line.. if bag lot sales are unethical, BAR needs to ban EVERY single online order from a non LFS member, coz what they are essentially getting is a livestock in a bag with no history how it arrived and what 'conditioning' it has gone through; that is no different than picking up livestock from the bag from a local fish store or fellow BAR member.

 

[Thales]

Your business along with only a couple others here in the Bay Area can’t be compared to 99 percent of most all the LFS in the greater Bay Area, Central Valley, Foothills etc..! People do not see what happens behind the lines. Inexperienced front facing staff, dirty displays with sick or bleached livestock at most other LFS give a bad rap thus giving the impression to most home hobbyists that they are better and can do better which in some cases very true. I believe most of the comments in this thread regarding who can provide better husbandry are comparing other LFS who do not follow stricter guidelines which you have mentioned as well. Plus anyone even new hobbyists can drastically see the proof or differences upon stepping into your business or the other select few others LFS practicing the best husbandry possible for their animals. During covid ordered fish twice online from a large local chain and a large online vendor saltwater fish within the same week who I assumed used local distributors. But after strongly believe both were a transshipment from indonesia or somewhere since new labels were just on top of the original shipping label. Strange tape, Indonesian and Chinese publications packed around the bags of fish. Needless to say they were DOA so that was my first and last online purchase ever.

When BAR started, I think we only had two FFS sponsors for a long long time because the other ones were either garage sellers or what we consider not to be good and ethical

 

[robert4025]

Thanks @PjFish for sharing this horrid experience with us.. with all due respect, after this incident, did you feel you were ‘unethical’ coz you ordered fish online and they died coz of the stress during transshipping? Did you take the entire blame on yourself that if you hadnt ordered the fish, they would probably be still alive or just decided not to order online in future and moved on? Please don't take it personally, you know how I feel about you. I genuinely want to know. If people learn after getting their hands burnt, let it be.. they wont probably partake in another bag lot sale if they think the chances of the livestock surviving is vastly different when buying at a LFS looking at them inside a glass instead of plastic bag.. but there is no reason to call this activity unethical.

I can’t speak for everyone, but it was never about saving money for me personally when I started replying to this thread.. it was about putting an ‘unethical’ label on people who participate in this activity, when almost everyone in this group has ordered at least some form of living stock online without knowing if they were transshipped or worshipped (pun intended).. it was about enforcing a rule that more than half the people in the group don’t agree to without asking them for their opinions.. it was about being inclusive and transparent to everyone in this group. Yes, if members save some $$$ in the process, let it be.

I am all in favor of ethical husbandry and loved reading comments from @robert4025 and @Thales about how much this means to both of them.. you both have achieved unprecedented success in this domain and your success can't be matched.. Neptune and HTA are always the 1st stores you hear about when you start your reefing journey.. respect is earned over time, and Neptune is certainly 1 of the most respected stores around.. Arguing if a LFS can take care of the livestock better than an experienced reefer is a moot point for me, as it is totally subjective.. And the amount of effort LFS puts in behind the scenes is unfathomable but so is an experienced reefer taking care of their fish! But putting a label on bag lot sales and calling it unethical is beyond my understanding.

I will repeat myself, Ethics is a thin line.. if bag lot sales are unethical, BAR needs to ban EVERY single online order from a non LFS member, coz what they are essentially getting is a livestock in a bag with no history how it arrived and what 'conditioning' it has gone through; that is no different than picking up livestock from the bag from a local fish store or fellow BAR member.

If you don’t mind me chiming in one more time.
This was never about labeling anyone or pointing fingers. Nobody here is calling individual members unethical for decisions they made, especially without full information.

What this is really about is perception and where we want this community to stand as a whole. When a club built around ethical husbandry endorses or normalizes practices that compromise animal welfare — even inadvertently — it sends a message about who we are and what we value. That’s the optics I’m concerned about.

And here’s why it matters beyond just us. Bay Area Reefers represents one of the most important and valuable forums for information exchange in this hobby. I personally send many of my customers here for guidance and learning. Now imagine a brand new hobbyist — someone just starting out — comes to this forum and sees that buying transshipped fish and corals from a bag lot sale is perfectly acceptable. What message are we sending them? What foundation are we giving them to build on?

These are exactly the kinds of mistakes we can avoid. These are the gaps we can close — if our policies, rules, and guidelines are solid and intentional. This is a real opportunity to address those gaps in our bylaws and set a standard that truly reflects what this club stands for.

We can be inclusive and transparent while still holding ourselves to a higher standard. In fact, that’s exactly what a healthy community does — it lifts everyone up rather than settling for the lowest common denominator. The goal was never to shame anyone. It was to inspire everyone to do better — for the animals, for the new hobbyists walking through the door, and for the hobby we all love.

Those things were never in conflict. They still aren’t.

 

[spuri87]

Now imagine a brand new hobbyist — someone just starting out — comes to this forum and sees that buying transshipped fish and corals from a bag lot sale is perfectly acceptable. What message are we sending them? What foundation are we giving them to build on?

Sir, with all due respect, how is buying a livestock online different than buying from a bag lot sale? Ultimately a new member will see it as a live stock shipped/transshipped inside a plastic bag with no history or information on how it was conditioned at a LFS? And since the end user is the same guy in both cases, if he has bad husbandry, it doesn’t matter if he bought it online, bag lot or fully conditioned from LFS, he will end up killing it soon. So, the real question is, are we going to ban online purchases as well?

Since we all have the same mission and that’s to keep this community united and fun while promoting ethical husbandry, why enforce a policy that may divide the members and force them out of BAR to look at other avenues?

I don’t want to come across as someone thick in the head or rude to anyone.. Messages don’t always convey the right intent, but I really mean no foul.. I will rest my case hereafter.. I trust BOD and BAR members to make the right decision that will help foster this community.

 

[PjFish]

Thanks @PjFish for sharing this horrid experience with us.. with all due respect, after this incident, did you feel you were ‘unethical’ coz you ordered fish online and they died coz of the stress during transshipping? Did you take the entire blame on yourself that if you hadnt ordered the fish, they would probably be still alive or just decided not to order online in future and moved on?
Per Pjfish
Was literally the first fishes ever ordered online since my local LFS closed their fish department during covid like many other LFS. Since I worked for a large non profit in the Tenderloin we never skipped a beat remaining open through the pandemic kinda wish I got a break lol.. Especially since I was salary and with everyone getting sick my hours greatly increased plus being that I never got covid despite physically removing violent mentally ill clients who liked to rumble and spit lol ..Back on topic I thought the fish were coming from an L.A distributor. Maybe they did and used the same box and filler? Who knows but was my first and last time ordering online. This was not about money just convenience so did feel bad being part of the big box consumer fish chain with the end result. Ive had numerous saltwater tanks since the late 80’s which were mainly fowler and gone through my share of all kinds of livestock which were healthier and lived longer compared to fish nowadays. Not saying alot of BAR members don’t have senior citizen fish which a fair amount do and know a few bar retirement centers for the aging ha.. Think there was more care invested back then with brick and mortar LFS competing with others in town (Miami to be more specific). You think things would just get better with advancing technology/ shipping practices/ acclimations etc but imho the opposite has happened with livestock! Coral science and care has grown leaps and bounds thanks to people loving their work and hobbies in spite funding and grants becoming dryer..
Not sure why if this response looks outa fórmate

 

[robert4025]

Sir, with all due respect, how is buying a livestock online different than buying from a bag lot sale? Ultimately a new member will see it as a live stock shipped/transshipped inside a plastic bag with no history or information on how it was conditioned at a LFS? And since the end user is the same guy in both cases, if he has bad husbandry, it doesn’t matter if he bought it online, bag lot or fully conditioned from LFS, he will end up killing it soon. So, the real question is, are we going to ban online purchases as well?

Since we all have the same mission and that’s to keep this community united and fun while promoting ethical husbandry, why enforce a policy that may divide the members and force them out of BAR to look at other avenues?

I don’t want to come across as someone thick in the head or rude to anyone.. Messages don’t always convey the right intent, but I really mean no foul.. I will rest my case hereafter.. I trust BOD and BAR members to make the right decision that will help foster this community.

I appreciate you closing respectfully and I’ll do the same.

To your point about online purchases versus bag lot sales — you’re right that both involve shipping stress. The difference is transparency and accountability. A reputable online vendor or LFS provides conditioning history, health guarantees, and established protocols. A bag lot transshipment sale typically offers none of that. That’s not a small distinction — that’s the whole point.

And yes — bad husbandry is absolutely a real problem. Nobody is arguing otherwise. But that’s actually a reason to raise the standard, not lower it.

If we know a new hobbyist is still developing their skills, why would we also want them starting with the most vulnerable, least conditioned animals possible? We’re compounding the risk unnecessarily.

As for dividing the community — I’d argue the opposite. A clear, well-reasoned standard that everyone understands and agrees on is what actually unites a community around a shared purpose. Division happens when guidelines are vague, inconsistently applied, or feel arbitrary. That’s exactly why this conversation is worth having.

And on that note — I do agree that the BOD has some real work ahead of them. Big decisions need to be made, and they need to be made thoughtfully and transparently, with the members at the table. Not handed down. That’s the only way any of this moves forward in a way that everyone can stand behind.

No foul taken. This is how good communities get better and I really appreciate your discussion.