Cali Kid Corals

Cost of MH vs T5 vs LED

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sfsuphysics

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So got a 4 foot long tank and was thinking about how to light it, was curious about cost of electricity and bulb replacement amongst other things in deciding which direction to go for lighting. So I decided to compare what was available to me.

Metal halide, with lumenarc reflectors (250W electronic ballast), figure 2 of these over the tank would be good. Probably 10 hours per day, replace bulbs every 9 months to be happy. I have these so the equipment is free minus the bulb cost. More notes on MH at end. Replacement bulb cost $20 per 9 months (yeah I'm not talking Radium lights, I have sourced a relatively good cheapy bulb)

T5s, 54w, parabolic/icecap reflectors, 8 of them over the tank should be an equivalent look. 12 hours per day, but with staggered on/off times figure they're on for 80% of the time, replace bulbs every 12 months (approximately $25 per) Again equipment I have, minus the bulbs (actually have found a couple actinic bulbs unused but for sake of argument I'll assume no bulbs).

LEDs, since I didn't want to include DIY setups, I figured either Radion G4 Pro or Maxspect Recurve . Either 2 Radions or one 48" Recurve fixture. Radion is $800 x 2 or Recurve is $1300. The Radion is 190W x 2 , and the Recurve is 320W, I'll give this a 50% multiplier to represent ramping up and maybe not being at 100% intensity.

Since I did all the calculations in a spreadsheet I'll save the dirty work and just post the results at yearly amounts. PG&E rates for the 101-400% of baseline are an absolutely "WTF DO I LIVE IN HAWAII!???!?!" level of expensive at 28 cents per kWh, I'll use this as where I'll be most the time

Metal halides end up at about $42 per month to run 2 for the time mentioned, at 1 year I would have bought 4 bulbs (2 initial and 2 more at the 9 month mark), and paid out a total of $584, and ever year it's roughly that amount as well, at $1128, $1712, $2255, $2799 at the 2,3,4 & 5 year mark respectively.

The T5 setup is only $26 per month to run 8 bulbs, but with 8 bulbs that's a $200 upfront cost to get started with a yearly "maintenance fee" of that amount as well, this turned more expensive initially being $713 at the one year mark, but then only going up $513 per year thereafter, at $1227, $1740, $2254, $2767. This ends up slightly cheaper metal halides, but for all intents and purposes it's the same cost.

The LED setup is only $20 per month for the Radion, or $16 for the Recurve, the cost with these guys is the initial investment, however after 5 years the Radion is finally cheaper than the MH or T5 at $2750, the Recurve on the other hand is cheaper up front than 2 Radions but also uses less power (assuming you did the same 50% avg power usage) so at the 3 year mark it's only slightly higher cost than both MH & T5, and at year 4 it's actually cheaper at $2074, year 5 you'll have forked out $2267 and it only gets cheaper from there.

So conclusions is that a high-end LED setup is comparably priced to a free MH or T5 setup at 5 years out.

Now there is a bit of a rub with this pricing, naming first the heat of MH lamps, and many people this might be a negative, but for me it would be a positive as it means the heaters need to work less, so there definitely could be cost savings there. Other things that are a bit impactful is that my tank is 36" front to back (not height) so I'm really skeptical of only 2 fixtures being able to cover the whole thing where as 2 lumenarc reflector halides absolutely could cover the whole thing. Plus I've seen people talking about LED burn out on fixtures, not just cheapy Chinese black box either (although those more so than others), now I'm not sure if these are rare cases or if they're common enough to really think that 5 years might be pushing the useful lifespan a LED fixture regardless of what they are rated at (notice no one gives warranty's that far out!)

Overall what direction will I go? It's hard to say, on one hand I like the customization of LEDs, the fact they can fade in/out and you can tune to what color you want your tank to be at. However MAP policies for literally every brand name out there really is a pain in my ass, and unfortunately I don't have "a guy" who works at a LFS that can give me the *wink wink nod* price on some fixtures. MACNA is just a month out so who knows what things will be available/new (seemed like every time you went to bed EcoTech came out with a new version of the Radion), not sure if I'll go to MACNA (damn plane tickets are expensive for Labor Day weekend... who's bright idea was it to have it then!), but even if I did they usually don't sell, and if they do at most they give you is the "no sales tax" price. Either way, I need to get water in my tank before I really commit to lighting as it is :)
 
Some notes:

* I totally agree that the costs are similar enough that you should not
really decide LED/MH/T5 based on that.
(That assumes retail LED. DIY changes things a bit)

For me:
You play around with the colors, getting exactly what you want.
Then you simply forget about them for years.
Never going back.

The normal LED diodes do slowly degrade. A couple percent per year.
But you can simply turn them up a bit once in a while, so they could easily last 20 years.

The UV diodes on the other hand have serious longevity issues.
The newer high quality ones are a lot better though.
So modern Radions are probably good, but a couple year old cheap chinese one may be shot by now.

Many LEDs use cheap power supplies.
Not so bad if it is external and easy to replace. So look for that.
Very bad if internal. You cannot replace them, and they get hot and fail faster.

Most LEDs use fans!
That is a major point of failure and maintenance. I hate that.
Slight noise also.

Regarding the advantageous heat of MH:
A large percentage of that waste heat goes into the air, and into the room, not
into the tank. Pros/cons to that.

* Don't forget about combos.
Get your 2 x 250W, supplement with LED to tweak the amount and color.
 
Yeah ultimately if I go the MH route I'd do something like my old 4'x3' tank setup which was the 2 lumenarcs that were only for my 6 hrs a day ("peak noon") then something as supplemental lighting. I still have my DIY LED setups which at the time (Radion v1 time) were on par (no pun) or better than them as far as output just fewer channels and no fancy interface, however I have no delusions that the ones today easily out pace my setup, that said they still work so maybe some testing with the club PAR meter when the time comes and we'll see where we are, RapidLED was one of my suppliers but they seem to have a focus more in the lighting for ... ahem "herbal supplement growing" market.

I do like the look of the GHL fixture though, a bit cheaper than the Radion, but with that blasted MAP policy black friday or similar sales are all but non existent.
 
Hey guys, I don’t want to derail the thread, but I have a quick question about map pricing. I just did some research on map pricing, and the article said the product has to be advertised at that price, but may be sold for less in store. Online, stores can make the price less once the item is in an encrypted shopping cart. Anytime I have talked about map pricing with a LFS Owner, they have all been firm that they can’t go lower than map. What gives?
 
Fish Boss said:
Hey guys, I don’t want to derail the thread, but I have a quick question about map pricing. I just did some research on map pricing, and the article said the product has to be advertised at that price, but may be sold for less in store. Online, stores can make the price less once the item is in an encrypted shopping cart. Anytime I have talked about map pricing with a LFS Owner, they have all been firm that they can’t go lower than map. What gives?
Click to expand...
Ultimately it is an agreement between the vendor and the manufacturer. The vendor is able to sell the product at whatever price they want but the manufacturer doesn’t have to sell them anymore of their products. This is why you don’t see map pricing on “cheap” brands. The vendor doesn’t really care if they stop getting their product. They’ll just go on to the next “cheap” manufacturer.

I don’t know that having the product in an encrypted online cart violates the agreement or not. That would ultimately be decided by the manufacturer. The whole idea behind having it is so that the brick and mortar stores can get a “fair” amount of profit and not be consistently under priced by online vendors who have less overhead.

There have been two situations where I’ve seen map pricing rules bent or broken. First, I’ve purchased from acquaintances that have a wholesale license. If the manufacturer found out about such sales it is very likely they would not receive any more of their products to be able to sell in the future. The other way is to include other things in the deal. I bought a table saw online and the vendor wouldn’t sell it for less but he was willing to pay for the shipping and the sales tax. You might see other things offered too. I buy high end photography gear too and on amazon I can buy the camera by itself or I can get the same camera bundled with a bunch of extra stuff (memory cards, cleaning gear and such) all for the same price. They’re trying to sweeten the deal and because of the map pricing they have a set margin they get from each sale that they will use to offer the other items for “free” with the camera.
 
Phillips one really isn't on the radar specifically because it's a European import, requires 220V, and there has to be some reason why they haven't made a US release version (maybe there's special black magic in there that only works with 220V?), but who knows. Part of me wants to start with LEDs if I'm going to do LEDs, but then another part of me is "damnit MH bulbs are just too good in those reflectors to pass up", I have time to think about it though, so it's not a huge deal now.

As to the MAP question, yeah having a different price in the cart I've seen before, yet ironically NEVER in the aquarium trade, perhaps the aquarium trade is just too small for anyone to try and rock the boat where as someplace like Best Buy is like "umm we're Best Buy, it'll hurt you more than us to not have your products sold here", because technically you aren't held to purchase by "adding to cart" so it still is an advertisement of the price. But fish stores could sell you lower than advertised, but they're not going to unless they know you as a good customer, and know you're not going to blab to anyone. I've bought Vortech pumps at 15% under MAP before because I knew the guy, another thing (which of course I've never done) is pay in cash and get it tax free, but all of that is having a rapport with the guy at the cash register.

I do like the idea though of getting other stuff with it. Like hey fine I'll buy the Radion and Vortech pumps at full price, but only if you give me a 20% break on the aquarium (or whatever)
 
Some shops, like Bulk Reef Suppy, get around MAP by awarding bonus points
that give you cash back on the next purchase.
And to have a sale, sometimes offer extra bonus points.
 
rygh said:
Some shops, like Bulk Reef Suppy, get around MAP by awarding bonus points
that give you cash back on the next purchase.
And to have a sale, sometimes offer extra bonus points.
Click to expand...

Not really, because they limit those MAP products to 1% vs their normal 5% or 10%. And when they do give more bonus points on MAP products (which is rare - maybe once a year) they are usually manufacturer initiated.
 
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