Coral reefer
Past President
Moving the thread made sense. Why should someone do dbtc vs pif? (Asking for a friend)
Dbtc thoughts, comments and issues
- Thread starter Krak256
- Start date
Not at all. I've noticed that some have been made with no rules or even mentioning that they should be passed around before sold or anything like that. It seems like some people are using it just to get rid of extra frags with no care if the are banked
At the risk of mansplaining to someone who I think already knows this- We have standard DBTC rules. When no other rules are specified, then the standard rules apply. Why should we need to state that they should be passed around if it’s a DBTC, which by definition requires this?
Easy standard rules are better anyway, the more complex and specific rules the worse, in my opinion. I think sharing easy corals in DBTC is perfect, and is well aligned with our mission. I just want people to actually continue to share them after they get them.
I used to do PIF for lots of coral years ago when DBTC was handled manually and people were sometimes being a-holes and getting in arguments about it, which I didn’t want to be part of. Now we have BARCode and a much better attitude overall in my opinion, so I share lots in DBTC. Now the only DBTCs people get upset and in arguments about are the higher end ones with very specific (and changing) rules. I don’t have a problem with those, because we decided people can do it that way if they want, but I also don’t see them as a better way of sharing.
derek_SR
Supporting Member
@richiev you make some interesting arguments but I agree with @RandyC, it's not really about incentives. It wouldn't hurt, certainly - but that's not the root cause of the issue in my mind. If you look at barcode right now, there are a LOT of frags available and a LOT of people who want those frags - they just aren't moving. So I stand by my original thesis that one of the main issues is simple logistics, and a tool or process to minimize the pain of said logistics (like being able to easily coordinate several pickups and dropoffs at once) would help a lot.
Another thing to keep in mind is we need to really get away from any bitterness about "freeloaders." I know you all know this, but a very small percentage of hobbyists are actually successful. Let's say it's 10% for the sake of argument - only 10% of people are going to actually be able to successfully grow out frags and return them. They have good intentions (a very tiny number of folks are just looking to "freeload,") they just lack the success needed to really put back a ton of frags. I think our club can help increase that 10% number over time, but it's always going to be the reality of the hobby. We just need to embrace this for DBTC to be successful. And the more frags we put into it, and the more volume of DBTC that get traded, then that 10% number represents a larger and larger quantity of completed chains and active chains. If we have 10 active chains, maybe 1 will get completed. If we have 100 active chains, maybe 10 will get completed. The latter is healthier and more successful than the former, IMO, even if the 10% rule stays true over time.
Regular DBTC meet ups would help (and be fun), but I was also thinking about leveraging LFS (or local "whales") to act as Amazon lockers. Kenny would do it for us, no doubt - reserve a small section of his frag system for us to drop off DBTC corals and pick them up. If I knew I could drop off 5 frags and pick up 5 frags with a single visit to Kenny...I would be all over it. I bet Robert would support South Bay. My tank could be the drop-off location for the North Bay, etc.
Another thought is the idea of a "common" DBTC chain for very easy/common corals. Do we really need a bunch of different lineaged purple stylo? What if we consolidated these corals into a single DBTC thread with a ton of available frags - ONE chain for purple stylo, ONE chain for red monti cap, etc. Newbies could quickly fill their tank with the easy stuff and it would move some of these swaps from PIF activity into DBTC activity.
In short: 1. volume is good. 2. Ease of coordinating drop offs and pick ups is good. 3. Whales who contribute a ton of frags to the system without bitterness or expectation that all their chains get completed is good.
Of course for very high end corals, #3 maybe doesn't apply - but those will get traded within a pretty small circle anyway. A circle I hope to contribute to and be a part of, but that shouldn't be the heart of DBTC either IMO. @RandyC shouldn't ever be expected to give a frag of Froot Loops to some newbie (give it to me pls), and I think an expectation that a frag of that value gets a chain completed is quite reasonable.
Another thing to keep in mind is we need to really get away from any bitterness about "freeloaders." I know you all know this, but a very small percentage of hobbyists are actually successful. Let's say it's 10% for the sake of argument - only 10% of people are going to actually be able to successfully grow out frags and return them. They have good intentions (a very tiny number of folks are just looking to "freeload,") they just lack the success needed to really put back a ton of frags. I think our club can help increase that 10% number over time, but it's always going to be the reality of the hobby. We just need to embrace this for DBTC to be successful. And the more frags we put into it, and the more volume of DBTC that get traded, then that 10% number represents a larger and larger quantity of completed chains and active chains. If we have 10 active chains, maybe 1 will get completed. If we have 100 active chains, maybe 10 will get completed. The latter is healthier and more successful than the former, IMO, even if the 10% rule stays true over time.
Regular DBTC meet ups would help (and be fun), but I was also thinking about leveraging LFS (or local "whales") to act as Amazon lockers. Kenny would do it for us, no doubt - reserve a small section of his frag system for us to drop off DBTC corals and pick them up. If I knew I could drop off 5 frags and pick up 5 frags with a single visit to Kenny...I would be all over it. I bet Robert would support South Bay. My tank could be the drop-off location for the North Bay, etc.
In short: 1. volume is good. 2. Ease of coordinating drop offs and pick ups is good. 3. Whales who contribute a ton of frags to the system without bitterness or expectation that all their chains get completed is good.
Of course for very high end corals, #3 maybe doesn't apply - but those will get traded within a pretty small circle anyway. A circle I hope to contribute to and be a part of, but that shouldn't be the heart of DBTC either IMO. @RandyC shouldn't ever be expected to give a frag of Froot Loops to some newbie (give it to me pls), and I think an expectation that a frag of that value gets a chain completed is quite reasonable.
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MichaelB
Supporting Member
Maybe follow the similar method as frag swaps have dbtc levels common, uncommon rare, or beginer, advanced, or expert. In short a simple ranking method for dbtc corals nothing elabrate.
Higher teir reserved / unlocked for those who give back more as a reward or encouragement of sorts " if i give back to dbtc I can earn access to the nicer dbtc corals".
I think it would be easy to do if a dedicated person was over dbtc we even have the bonus and ultra lists as a general starting point- and they could also in time bonuce off of each other if it proves effective. Hopefully it could possibly add value to the dbtc as a whole even for the newest members.
Coral reefer
Past President
Agree with a lot of it, but there are some issues I see.
I would not expect and lfs to put corals fro. Hobbyists directly into their systems. I wouldn’t advise you to do that either. You will almost certainly wind up with some sort of pest etc
Sometimes corals we believe to be the same are not actually the same. This is why keeping separate chains makes sense. Just because we don’t know if they are or are not the same doesn’t mean lump them together. Maybe they could be grouped together somehow into a category of purple stylo chains for example, for ease of finding/sorting what’s out there, but I believed they should remain separate.
For example, are all purple styles the same? Is it just rank conditions that make some thin and long branching and other short and stubby? Or is there a difference in the coral? I dont know. Does it matter? I’m not sure. I do believe there are different “purple stylo” varieties out there. One gets called “milka” for instance.
THIS!!! I'm still learning how to even keep a reef tank happy. In time, I will proudly be able to share back into the DBTC. But for now, my recent acquisitions from the club could make it appear to others that I'm a freeloader. Far from what I would want to be seen as. We really cannot get into the mindset about being able to control people's intentions though. If someone joins BAR just for the DBTC program, there's not much we can do about it IMO. If they join just to be a part of events, then so be it. Derek is right, that we can slowly increase the small number of members that want the program to succeed and are invested to giving back. Inspiring others to do the same. That is what inspired me to dedicate space in my tank for DBTC items. Now if I could only grow them too instead of just keeping it alive.
Also, I am still learning how to even use BARCode and keep track of my DBTC items. I have been poorly disorganized with some of the placement of DBTC pieces. Either I wasn't paying attention when I pulled them out of the cup to dip them, or my wife was helping me and then I've got no clue what is what and where now. For that, I feel bad because I should have been more careful and deliberate.
It's been great to see the positive feedback and overall desire to see the program improve. Club is moving in the right direction. These are the little things that a lot of folks with negative perspectives about BAR do not see or understand.
We absolutely need a DBTC Coordinator that can slowly iron out wrinkles. That much is clear.
On the BARcode side, I do think that @yosemiteclimber and @svreef can figure out a way to transition duties and come up with ideas to streamline and improve its efficiency.
Coral reefer
Past President
We have discussed having 2 or 3 tiers of dbtc. It
When I proposed it there was definitely some push back. People have expressed negativity towards our club as being a “good old boys club” where only a few people receive the “good stuff” and I think some members were hesistant to possibly play into that perception.
I never saw it that way, and still don’t. Anyone who sticks around long enough, and doesn’t cause problems will eventually be seen as a long time respected member and people should have a good idea which members are best at keeping stuff alive and giving back out frags. It takes time to build a reputation. I personally don’t see any reason to give a brand new member a “high end” dbtc when I have no clue who they are, what their tank is like, how long they might stick around, or their willingness to give back out frags. It makes sense to me that members would build up their dbtc resume by receiving and completing chains and ideally starting some of their own. Once they compete a certain amount of dbtc activity they would be eligible for these 2
100% Agree. Different chains for different keepers. Categorization is a necessary improvement. Also, my ignorance with how it currently works must be stated. I have not dived deep enough into it because it is a bit overwhelming honestly. I'm a little more comfortable now, now as a new member, it presents quite the learning curve.
That reminds me of an idea I had when I joined. A simple series of tutorial videos would be a great tool for helping cleanup BARcode. It may seem intuitive and easy for some of you, and that's fine. But we need to honestly think about members that find it intimidating, frustrating, or difficult to navigate. I'd be more than happy to take on this task, but I am far from an expert on using it. I simply don't use it often enough to feel confident about it.
Coral reefer
Past President
Agree with a lot of this. I actually see no problem for someone joining because of dbtc. The more participants the merrier imo. Start them off with stuff that is plentiful and see what happens. If a beginning hobbyist that new to the club gets 20 dbtc frags and kills them all that could suck, but if they are open and honest about what happened and mark the frags as dead then so be it. I’d give them another round of the plentiful fast growing corals again for sure.
When people come, load up, ever update the chains, and disappear it rubs me wrong.
A s you stated, nothing we can really do about that.
Some people leave out candy for Halloween if they won’t be home to answer the door. Sometimes jerks take more than they should. That does not mean we let the bad actors dictate our actions and stop leaving out candy. The reason we left it out is because we feel it’s the right thing to do and we want to support the good people out there that we would like to give some candy to.
Most of the probably hundreds of frags I gave out outside of swaps Are gone. Who knows what happened to them. Most people never updated chains and disappeared. Do I regret giving them out? No. Do I wish I had sometimes made wiser choices about who to give them to? Yes. But how do you know? Give people easy fast growing stuff to start out with and let them show us who they are is my opinion. The people who stick around, update the chains, and seem to care are worth the others that come and go imo
Coral reefer
Past President
I’d be happy to help you if it would help
derek_SR
Supporting Member
We don't have to do this
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Not to sidetrack to much, but there are definitely very different corals called purple stylo. I have (or had) 2 kinds- one was from ORA, is short and stubby and the skeleton was literally harder than rock (almost uncuttable including with a band saw). The other is thin branch, and easy to cut- actually if I bump it, it breaks.
But yeah, supporting your point that we should keep chains separate.
MichaelB
Supporting Member
Precisely my thoughts, and members with nicer stuff would also be more inspired to share. And value the program.
PjFish
Supporting Member
DerekSR said
“only 10% of people are going to actually be able to successfully grow out frags and return them.”
Thats a great point ! If you think about how many corals people bring and get at frag swaps how many of those survive? When I bring corals to swaps do I believe theres only a 10% chance they will live? Maybe the odds are a bit higher in our club but a fair amount turn to skeletons. But thats expected and doesn’t bother me.. With so many enablers people giving out corals I think its hard for some people to say “No “ regardless if certain corals keep dying in their tanks but they do want to be successful and thats part of learning or their brand new to the hobby and want pretty corals cause their pretty ..Just stick with what corals actually grow into colonies in your tank then expand slowly with a couple more not 10 or 20 more at once lol
Reserving space at an LFS would be cool even for PIF but think it would have to be a dedicated system due to chances of pests. Also waterproof labels on corals for ease of organizing on whose is whose.
Just don’t call us all garbage and you should be fine
Kensington Reefer
Supporting Member
IMMHO and experience
For the frag “drop offs” at stores or private systems…..
Theses must be dedicated and isolated systems!
Too many cooks in one pot….bugs, diseases, fungus, sponges
They come from somebody
Reefer Madness
Supporting Member
Speaking personally I looked at dbtc as a honor in a way and it kind of worried me. Someone is giving you something that they paid for and cared for. Its kind of like watching over a friend's pet and with that it is your responsibility on keeping it alive and well taken care of. It's one thing burning my own money on coral but i feel entirely different asking to do it at someone else's expense. So that is why I wanted to try and offer some coral before I even asked for other people to offer coral to me.