Diving straight in - Sameer's Waterbox Infinia 230.6 build thread

[PjFish]

ah I can chime in on this, im currently battling high mag somewhere between 1500-1600, maxed out the salifert kit plus had add another .2ml to get it to change color. from what I've been reading and its slightly contentious but their are actual scientific studies that back it up,is mag levels over 1500 can act as a paralytic on snails, effecting theory muscles. but am also seeing some amazing coral growth, especially my months seem very happy.

dito on maxing out Mag Salifert kit last year when I changed salts to Tropic Marin Pro Reef salt plus combined with my existing calcium reactor cranked up my levels. Corals and cucs no effect. Tank was running 81-82 degrees and was going to hook up the chiller but all my LPS and large softies were super expanded hammers and frog polyps were triple sized. So just let the temps come down naturally after the heat wave which lasted about a week. The higher temps and elevated mag and ca seemed to increase the heart beat or metabolism of the tank resulting in a huge growth spurt which also rapidly increased the consumption of ca and mag assuming . I did take the ca reactor offline when lights went off daily until the parameters gradually came down to normal levels. Salinity during this was .026 or a touch higher.

 

[Royce023]

Well, this is my take on what matters:

1. Salinity

With this inappropriate salinity, the ICP has little value.

Most of these key parameters adjust for salinity and will therefore show reference points that are not helpful.

Action: Get salinity to the well-known reference points around 35 PSU, plus / minus 0.5, if possible.

2. F

Important but far too low. I prefer keeping it at 3 x times the amount.

F will increase with salinity as well, but only to about 0.67 once salinity is at 35 PSU. This needs to be slowly dosed, but I assume you are using a cheap salt, which is often the reason for low F.

3. MG

There seems to be an obsession in the US with MG. Often due to heavy social media promotion. Gonies will be perfectly fine with 1350 mg/L, anything higher is not needed, but also not really detrimental unless you are reaching >1600 mg/L.

4. MO

Important but far too low.

12-15 is preferable.

5. V / Cu / Ni / Zn

All should be much higher and should help with nutrient reduction once dialed in. Their (ATI) seawater references are the lowest acceptable levels of these and should at least be met, ideally higher.

6. Nutrients

These are *really* high (I was tempted to use expletive language but stopped short of following through).


Happy to share more thoughts but did not want to make it more complicated than needed.

I think having salinity at 1.026 SG or 35 PPT is paramount for successfully growing coral. However, make sure the tool used to measure salinity is accurate. I’ve been burned before from inaccurate conductivity meters. I often test for salinity ensuring it does not deviate. I believe salinity is one of most important parameter to test for besides temperature.

In the past, I’ve added saltwater to my ATO to raise salinity over a week.

 

[Royce023]

ah I can chime in on this, im currently battling high mag somewhere between 1500-1600, maxed out the salifert kit plus had add another .2ml to get it to change color. from what I've been reading and its slightly contentious but their are actual scientific studies that back it up,is mag levels over 1500 can act as a paralytic on snails, effecting theory muscles. but am also seeing some amazing coral growth, especially my months seem very happy.

Made me think of my first reef tank which had high levels of MGN. I think the culprit was Fritz salt.

 

[Alexander1312]

While I did not want to feed the MG beast, I just wanted to add that I never test MG outside ICP.

However, recently I tested MG with Salifert - my go to home test for CA - and it consistently showed the max range (1,500 mg) - tested 3 or 4 times and always got the same results.

Sent out two ICP to Oceamo and Fauna Marin since then and both confirmed that I remained in my desired range of above 1300/1350 mg/L.

So apparently these tests go bad too, as I can confidently dismiss user error.

 

[PjFish]

While I did not want to feed the MG beast, I just wanted to add that I never test MG outside ICP. However, recently I tested MG with Salifert - my go to home test for CA - and it consistently showed the max range (1,500 mg) - tested 3 or 4 times and always got the same results. Sent out two ICP to Oceamo and Fauna Marin since then and both confirmed that I remained in my desired range of above 1300/1350 mg/L. So apparently these tests go bad too, as I can confidently dismiss user error.

While I did not want to feed the MG beast, I just wanted to add that I never test MG outside ICP. However, recently I tested MG with Salifert - my go to home test for CA - and it consistently showed the max range (1,500 mg) - tested 3 or 4 times and always got the same results. Sent out two ICP to Oceamo and Fauna Marin since then and both confirmed that I remained in my desired range of above 1300/1350 mg/L. So apparently these tests go bad too, as I can confidently dismiss user error.

While I did not want to feed the MG beast, I just wanted to add that I never test MG outside ICP. However, recently I tested MG with Salifert - my go to home test for CA - and it consistently showed the max range (1,500 mg) - tested 3 or 4 times and always got the same results. Sent out two ICP to Oceamo and Fauna Marin since then and both confirmed that I remained in my desired range of above 1300/1350 mg/L. So apparently these tests go bad too, as I can confidently dismiss user error.

 

[PjFish]

Thats very useful info @Alexander1312 thank you! Are you referring to Salifert Mag test kits? Have you got mixed results with other salifert kits which ICP contradicted? This might close my mystery Mag rabbit hole finally!!

 

[spuri87]

I think having salinity at 1.026 SG or 35 PPT is paramount for successfully growing coral.

Why? I asked this question a few times in different threads and always got mixed reactions from different folks.. If I maintain STABLE 1.023 vs 1.026 but maintain Ca, Mg, Alk and other trace elements in the expected range, why does the Salinity at 1.026 matter? I understand @Alexander1312's point that the ICP test results will show skewed numbers coz the results are clearly based off the salinity in the tank.. But I dont understand why maintaining a little lower salinity whilst maintaining all other trace elements within range won't work (chatGPT termed this "ionic imbalance").

However, make sure the tool used to measure salinity is accurate.

I bought TM Hydrometer, will use that going forward in addition to quick checks on Hanna. I do not have Salinity probe in APEX yet, that's on the thanksgiving wish list!

2. F

Important but far too low. I prefer keeping it at 3 x times the amount.

F will increase with salinity as well, but only to about 0.67 once salinity is at 35 PSU. This needs to be slowly dosed, but I assume you are using a cheap salt, which is often the reason for low F.

Thanks, I will plan to start dosing Fluoride too.

V / Cu / Ni / Zn

All should be much higher and should help with nutrient reduction once dialed in. Their (ATI) seawater references are the lowest acceptable levels of these and should at least be met, ideally higher.

Someone mentioned that I should do a MS test instead of OES test which will be able to pickup these smaller traceable amounts.

6. Nutrients

These are *really* high (I was tempted to use expletive language but stopped short of following through).

Haha, IKR.. Remember the thread "Tank Parameters all over the place"? I honestly dont see any major algae issues, corals dont speak to me but they do look happy.. I started dosing Elimi Phos Rapid, but that caused a dip in Alk and I am not yet ready to start dosing Alk separately (outside of AFR) so stopped dosing it for now.. Always makes me think why bother fix something that aint even broken? In the process of fixing these numbers, I will definitely create new problems.. I have been given examples of @Thales multiple times on R2R and here who was running an absolutely stunning reef tank with high Nutrients.. though my tank is definitely not at a maturity level as his, I think I should try not to intervene with chemicals (just yet)! Oh and yeah, I did order some chaeto from Dinkins and started a refugium.

 

[Royce023]

Why? I asked this question a few times in different threads and always got mixed reactions from different folks.. If I maintain STABLE 1.023 vs 1.026 but maintain Ca, Mg, Alk and other trace elements in the expected range, why does the Salinity at 1.026 matter? I understand @Alexander1312's point that the ICP test results will show skewed numbers coz the results are clearly based off the salinity in the tank.. But I dont understand why maintaining a little lower salinity whilst maintaining all other trace elements within range won't work (chatGPT termed this "ionic imbalance").


I bought TM Hydrometer, will use that going forward in addition to quick checks on Hanna. I do not have Salinity probe in APEX yet, that's on the thanksgiving wish list!


Thanks, I will plan to start dosing Fluoride too.


Someone mentioned that I should do a MS test instead of OES test which will be able to pickup these smaller traceable amounts.

Haha, IKR.. Remember the thread "Tank Parameters all over the place"? I honestly dont see any major algae issues, corals dont speak to me but they do look happy.. I started dosing Elimi Phos Rapid, but that caused a dip in Alk and I am not yet ready to start dosing Alk separately (outside of AFR) so stopped dosing it for now.. Always makes me think why bother fix something that aint even broken? In the process of fixing these numbers, I will definitely create new problems.. I have been given examples of @Thales multiple times on R2R and here who was running an absolutely stunning reef tank with high Nutrients.. though my tank is definitely not at a maturity level as his, I think I should try not to intervene with chemicals (just yet)! Oh and yeah, I did order some chaeto from Dinkins and started a refugium.

I draw from personal experience of my first reef tank. I was using the Hannah salinity checker which was erroneously reading at a higher level even though it was calibrated many times. The actual reading was much lower. Corals were not looking good — and a lot of the SPS were lost. Once I corrected it to NSW levels, they started recovering. I would advocate to keep stable parameters at NSW. Why keep it stable at lower levels when you can do the same thing at NSW salinity? I am not sure if 1.023 SG is NSW levels for the majority of coral reefs. Maybe someone can educate me.

 

[Alexander1312]

Why can salinity not be lower?

Interesting question.

I guess the main concern with your salinity reading is that it is *really* low (you know what these * mean). Running 30.6 PSU vs target 35 PSU is not only ‘a little’ lower.

I did play around with Gemini and it did offer actually a couple of relatable reasons for non-marine scientists:

1. Life in lower salinity water seems to require a lot more energy from living organisms, including corals and inverts to do their thing (osmotic disruption). This can lead to lower health, lower growth, and higher exposure to disease.

2. Higher risk of precipitation of major elements in lower salinity environments.

 

[spuri87]

Why can salinity not be lower?

Interesting question.

I guess the main concern with your salinity reading is that it is *really* low (you know what these * mean). Running 30.6 PSU vs target 35 PSU is not only ‘a little’ lower.

I did play around with Gemini and it did offer actually a couple of relatable reasons for non-marine scientists:

1. Life in lower salinity water seems to require a lot more energy from living organisms, including corals and inverts to do their thing (osmotic disruption). This can lead to lower health, lower growth, and higher exposure to disease.

2. Higher risk of precipitation of major elements in lower salinity environments.

Thank you @Alexander1312.. As always, I appreciate your input.. I am just playing devil's advocate here, I asked chatGPT if the 2 points you shared above are true.. its response was "Mostly #1 is directionally true, but overstated for a reef at 1.023. #2 is generally backwards." Sharing the full response as an attachment. Gemini vs chatGPT

I do understand why 1.026 maybe the golden standard if you are NOT dosing any trace elements and only relying on water changes.. But if we are dosing the depleted elements, I believe a lower salinity level might still be ok.. I do really want to know from the reefers here, what salinity do they run their reef at and if they see any positives or negatives of doing one or other. Will start a poll right away.

 

[PjFish]

Wondering what is your logic on keeping low salinity? Parasite suppression, cost savings which I think are the only benefits. When I kept Fish only systems back in the 90’s was super common recommendation to run .017 to .020 with zero issues which I did for a few years. After moving to Florida and using my own collected nsw is when I switched for good. I remember reading articles around that time long term low salinity is not good for fish but that was a when reefing started to explode plus they were not published scientific papers.. Another note the local nsw reefers buy from one specific source here in the Bay Area varies quite a bit in the winter which Ive tested .023 routinely during winter months! Had no issues when I was using it just decided to start making my own for more control factors and ease of use. Honestly if I had room for a 500+ storage tank would just be getting delivery's of nsw most likely…I do keep my salinity .025-.026 @ 78 degrees but during heat waves may jump to 80-81 for a couple days with no ill effects.. I do have a chiller for extended heat waves if needed fyi

 

[spuri87]

Wondering what is your logic on keeping low salinity? Parasite suppression, cost savings which I think are the only benefits. When I kept Fish only systems back in the 90’s was super common recommendation to run .017 to .020 with zero issues which I did for a few years. After moving to Florida and using my own collected nsw is when I switched for good. I remember reading articles around that time long term low salinity is not good for fish but that was a when reefing started to explode plus they were not published scientific papers.. Another note the local nsw reefers buy from one specific source here in the Bay Area varies quite a bit in the winter which Ive tested .023 routinely during winter months! Had no issues when I was using it just decided to start making my own for more control factors and ease of use. Honestly if I had room for a 500+ storage tank would just be getting delivery's of nsw most likely…

Good question! I think I dont have any particular reason to do so.. After I completed Hypo exercise, I just stopped at 1.023 since I only had a fish only system at that point. In my head, I am 100% convinced to move close to 1.026, only to have accurate ICP results next time.. but genuinely want to know other reasons why folks target 1.026 (except the reason God runs its reefs (the oceans) at 1.026 )

 

[Alexander1312]

Good question! I think I dont have any particular reason to do so.. After I completed Hypo exercise, I just stopped at 1.023 since I only had a fish only system at that point. In my head, I am 100% convinced to move close to 1.026, only to have accurate ICP results next time.. but genuinely want to know other reasons why folks target 1.026 (except the reason God runs its reefs (the oceans) at 1.026 )

Having all but one ocean (as far as I know) run higher salinity is a great reason in my opinion.

 

[Alexander1312]

Thank you @Alexander1312.. As always, I appreciate your input.. I am just playing devil's advocate here, I asked chatGPT if the 2 points you shared above are true.. its response was "Mostly #1 is directionally true, but overstated for a reef at 1.023. #2 is generally backwards." Sharing the full response as an attachment. Gemini vs chatGPT

I do understand why 1.026 maybe the golden standard if you are NOT dosing any trace elements and only relying on water changes.. But if we are dosing the depleted elements, I believe a lower salinity level might still be ok.. I do really want to know from the reefers here, what salinity do they run their reef at and if they see any positives or negatives of doing one or other. Will start a poll right away.

I only dumb down the Gemini chat.

Here is the actual result:

‎Gemini - direct access to Google AI

Created with Gemini

share.gemini.google

And here is the simplification of the above - before I further simplified it.

‎Gemini - direct access to Google AI

Created with Gemini

share.gemini.google

These are the Gemini settings used to obtain the above:

 

[PjFish]

Wondering if having salinity over 35 or higher swings really over rated for being detrimental to our systems? safer to have salinity swings higher vs lower kinda comparing the Red Sea Ocean having an average from 36 to 41ppt? The Red Sea reefs and fish are truly amazing hopefully will get a chance to dive their in the near future! A lot of reefers keep salinity a bit low for a buffer zone so they don’t go over 35 which appears not to be such a danger zone anymore . Most corals can adapt and several have originated from that location plus livestock just wondering in they can adapt more easily with higher salinity vs lower and thrive. I guess really depends on the corals in tank..Ive had tanks full of lps, leathers, Xeniidae, nems & shrooms for over six months with salinity up around 38ppt and didn’t even observe a changes other then coraline algae growing crazy! Issue was due to faulty calibration fluid which now is homemade..

 

[Coral reefer]

I think a lot of us think we know what our tanks are at and I think a lot of us probably aren’t quite right…