High Tide Aquatics

Heater recommendations ... again (and Hydros questions)

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richiev

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I am finally transferring things from my holding tank back into my display. In doing so I realized both my Hygger heaters are rusting! I feel I constantly am looking up heaters and just want to be done with this for good. What I have had or do have:

  • Inkbirds: multiple of these, and I've always found them to drift. I also found as a heat controller I see much larger temp swings in my tank than I'd expect, even after doing the switch to celsius and setting it to target 0.1° range. I've also seen them get stuck and do huge swings that trigger temp warnings on backup devices (eg I've seen it drop to 74°F'ish when configured to do 77.5°F). I've generally moved away from these, even though they're cheap.
  • Hygger: these specifically. completely possible that I'm just an idiot and these are meant for freshwater, but I see no mention of that. They are Titanium Steel. I was happy with them, but now seeing rust and that may be the explanation of weird issues I've had in that display. I never saw something in an ICP test, but haven't done one recently. Actually, reading more, the reviews say buried in the manual it says freshwater only, so partially I guess that's on me.....
    • I've also had a different Hygger I got from someone with a titanium heater, and seemed like it worked fine.
  • Pure Eheim's: I have used these, but want them connected to a controller (they're also huge)
  • Reef-Pi controlled wifi outlet + heater: this worked super well for me, but is extremely not fault-tolerant. If my router goes down, my tank doesn't get heated. I did this for awhile but now think it's insane to do.
  • Ranco: I have one of these after all the recommendations. Wired it up. Pretty barebones. Not sure if it holds stable or not, but no general complaints I guess (maybe this is answering my question)
So that brings me to my what should I use questions.

I started looking at the IM Helio heaters. These are insanely expensive ($320 for the 700w setup), but I really like that they have a failsafe temp check in the heater itself, along with a separate controller, a 5yr warranty, and from what I can read they try to use one heater as the main one and one as finer-grained control. Also the magnetic mounts seem very nice. However, insanely expensive.

I then started looking at the Hydros setups. I've wanted to try Hydros, and I could get one of those plus some eheim jager's for not too far off. However, are people really having Hydros control their heat over their home wifi network? That seems insane to me, similar to how it was insane for me to do it with Reef-Pi. I could see having it be a direct wifi connection (controller <> power strip), but from what I'm reading it looks like they connect to your home wifi. If that's correct, then if your router goes down while your heater is off, you have zero heat in your tank until your router comes back.

The apex equivalent setup also is not something I'd consider right now, at least buying new, because of how expensive the intro cost is. Though I'd happily eventually try a Trident, having a $630 entry cost to get a controller on a heater is too high for me, especially since I'm not sold on locking into that ecosystem. However, the wired setup seems much more logical than the Hydros one, for a heater.

My desires:
  • external controller
  • secondary temperature control to avoid frying things if it gets stuck on
  • need to be at least 500w since I keep my house cool
  • need at least two heaters (I may install one in my display and one in the sump for redundancy)
  • temperature calibration control so when it drifts I can fix
  • ideally:
    • an audible alarm
    • fan control
    • a temp display
    • not a bazillion dollars
    • heaters that are black because I might hide one in my display for those cases where something goes awry with the return pump
And maybe the answer is I just buy some more mega-wattage jagers to plug it into my Ranco, and put a secondary heater directly in my display.
 
I use Ranco for controller on/off of heaters and in some of my systems there is also apex as a third fail safe in addition to the heater itself.

Given that I have plenty of redundancy and fail-safe built-in, I have used these hitop heaters for years, probably 10+ units in all. Only one has failed after being used for 3+ years.


For the 150, I am giving this a try and so far, it seems to be doing the job, but we'll see after we get passed the year mark.

 
RandyC said:
I use Ranco for controller on/off of heaters and in some of my systems there is also apex as a third fail safe in addition to the heater itself.

Given that I have plenty of redundancy and fail-safe built-in, I have used these hitop heaters for years, probably 10+ units in all. Only one has failed after being used for 3+ years.
...
For the 150, I am giving this a try and so far, it seems to be doing the job, but we'll see after we get passed the year mark.
...
Click to expand...
I have apparently bought those glass Hitop ones twice based on my amazon history; I think from your recommendation. The titanium one is interesting, but it not saying how much it tries to hold the temp gives me pause (eg +- 1°F). What's your experience?

MarcosD said:
IM Helios heaters are very expensive but I’d say worth it. I’m running those on both my frag tank and 90 Display.
Click to expand...
Soooo expensive.

Since I've learned my rusting issue is because the Hygger isn't saltwater safe, and because I currently have multiple rusting ones, I 2-day ship ordered another 500w replacement Hygger from amazon. I'm pretty sure they're all the same, just with different styles, so I bought the one that has 15% off and is $43. That'll help me get the rusted stuff out while I figure out the long-term solution. BRS has $15 off every $100, so I could get $45 off the 600w Helios

ANNNOYING.
 
BRS has $15 off every $100 said:
Wait what 600W Helios? I think if you’re getting their dual packs you’re either stuck with 400W or 700W. You could mix/match the heating elements and get a 350W and a 200W to get 550W
Click to expand...
 
richiev said:
I have apparently bought those glass Hitop ones twice based on my amazon history; I think from your recommendation. The titanium one is interesting, but it not saying how much it tries to hold the temp gives me pause (eg +- 1°F). What's your experience?


Soooo expensive.

Since I've learned my rusting issue is because the Hygger isn't saltwater safe, and because I currently have multiple rusting ones, I 2-day ship ordered another 500w replacement Hygger from amazon. I'm pretty sure they're all the same, just with different styles, so I bought the one that has 15% off and is $43. That'll help me get the rusted stuff out while I figure out the long-term solution. BRS has $15 off every $100, so I could get $45 off the 600w Helios

ANNNOYING.
Click to expand...
Wait what 600W Helios? I think if you’re getting their dual packs you’re either stuck with 400W or 700W. You could mix/match the heating elements and get a 350W and a 200W to get 550W
 
Sounds like you're asking about both HEATER ELEMENTS as well as HEATER CONTROLLERS. Unfortunately the elements are kind of a crapshoot, I've had bad luck with BRS and good luck with Finnex.

As far as controllers - a lot of us use Ranco + Aquarium controller (Hydros or Apex) which checks pretty much every single bullet on your list. Nobody has had any issues with the Ranco other than @Alexander1312 and I usually chalk his issues up to user error anyway :p
 
There's no perfect heater and controller combo, but having the Apex or Hydros controller monitor temperature then have a Ranco do the tighter controlling gives extra levels of backup (especially if your heater also has a thermostat). That way you get the notification things are out of whack and can respond, but also not wear out the controller plug's relays (very common on both systems if you maintain a tight temperature).

But it's probably the biggest point of failure on a tank and causes the most crashes in my experience (fail on our off, metal leaching on cheap ones, stay voltage, etc.). Jake Adams used to replace his heaters annually, something I haven't had to do with Jagers (I still use ones that are broken or stuck on with the Ranco/Aqualogic).
 
richiev said:
I then started looking at the Hydros setups. I've wanted to try Hydros, and I could get one of those plus some eheim jager's for not too far off. However, are people really having Hydros control their heat over their home wifi network? That seems insane to me, similar to how it was insane for me to do it with Reef-Pi. I could see having it be a direct wifi connection (controller <> power strip), but from what I'm reading it looks like they connect to your home wifi. If that's correct, then if your router goes down while your heater is off, you have zero heat in your tank until your router comes back.
Click to expand...
As long as you are using a Hydros controller, you shouldn't have any issues when Wi-Fi goes out, the controller will continue to run whatever you programmed, you just won't get updates on your app. I would not connect your heater or heater controller to the Hydros Wi-Fi Power Strip, which is not a Hydros controller. That's the one that can do wonky stuff when Wi-Fi goes out.

I use a Ranco for primary heat control, hooked up the Hydros that has a higher temp range than the Ranco for secondary heat control, and then use my Eheim Jager with built in thermostat set higher than the Hydros as last line of defense. The control range of the Ranco is 1 degree which is fine with me, but before I got the Ranco I used the Hydros to control the Eheim Jager and you can get the temp controlled to within 0.1 degrees.
 
dangalang said:
As long as you are using a Hydros controller, you shouldn't have any issues when Wi-Fi goes out, the controller will continue to run whatever you programmed, you just won't get updates on your app. I would not connect your heater or heater controller to the Hydros Wi-Fi Power Strip, which is not a Hydros controller. That's the one that can do wonky stuff when Wi-Fi goes out.

I use a Ranco for primary heat control, hooked up the Hydros that has a higher temp range than the Ranco for secondary heat control, and then use my Eheim Jager with built in thermostat set higher than the Hydros as last line of defense. The control range of the Ranco is 1 degree which is fine with me, but before I got the Ranco I used the Hydros to control the Eheim Jager and you can get the temp controlled to within 0.1 degrees.
Click to expand...
derek_SR said:
Sounds like you're asking about both HEATER ELEMENTS as well as HEATER CONTROLLERS. Unfortunately the elements are kind of a crapshoot, I've had bad luck with BRS and good luck with Finnex.

As far as controllers - a lot of us use Ranco + Aquarium controller (Hydros or Apex) which checks pretty much every single bullet on your list. Nobody has had any issues with the Ranco other than @Alexander1312 and I usually chalk his issues up to user error anyway :p
Click to expand...
Darkxerox said:
There's no perfect heater and controller combo, but having the Apex or Hydros controller monitor temperature then have a Ranco do the tighter controlling gives extra levels of backup (especially if your heater also has a thermostat). That way you get the notification things are out of whack and can respond, but also not wear out the controller plug's relays (very common on both systems if you maintain a tight temperature).

But it's probably the biggest point of failure on a tank and causes the most crashes in my experience (fail on our off, metal leaching on cheap ones, stay voltage, etc.). Jake Adams used to replace his heaters annually, something I haven't had to do with Jagers (I still use ones that are broken or stuck on with the Ranco/Aqualogic).
Click to expand...
Sticking with the references to Hydros, I don't understand how people are using Hydros + heaters in a safe and controlled way if I'm interpreting how it works right.

A. Passive: Having a hydros monitor temperature and not control anything, that is reasonable to me, but adds no additional level of control.
B. Fallback (not fault-tolerant): Having a hydros monitor temperature and act as a backup control, that to me is not fault-tolerant. The Hydros connects to the outlet via wifi. Your wifi goes down and that fallback is totally broken.
C. Active (very not fault-tolerant): Having a hydros monitor temperature and act as the primary control, with the heater's temp as a backup, that's absolute crazy-sauce. I've done this with a Reef-Pi + Kasa outlet, and real bad news happens when wifi blips.

Am I getting it correct that there's no Apex + EB8 equivalent, safety, setup for Hydros? The Hydros can only serves as a passive temperature monitor, not controller.
 
richiev said:
Sticking with the references to Hydros, I don't understand how people are using Hydros + heaters in a safe and controlled way if I'm interpreting how it works right.

A. Passive: Having a hydros monitor temperature and not control anything, that is reasonable to me, but adds no additional level of control.
B. Fallback (not fault-tolerant): Having a hydros monitor temperature and act as a backup control, that to me is not fault-tolerant. The Hydros connects to the outlet via wifi. Your wifi goes down and that fallback is totally broken.
C. Active (very not fault-tolerant): Having a hydros monitor temperature and act as the primary control, with the heater's temp as a backup, that's absolute crazy-sauce. I've done this with a Reef-Pi + Kasa outlet, and real bad news happens when wifi blips.

Am I getting it correct that there's no Apex + EB8 equivalent, safety, setup for Hydros? The Hydros can only serves as a passive temperature monitor, not controller.
Click to expand...
Hydros does not control the AC outlets via Wi-Fi if you use the Launch or XP8. It does if you use the Wi-Fi Power Strip, which is not recommended.
 
richiev said:
Sticking with the references to Hydros, I don't understand how people are using Hydros + heaters in a safe and controlled way if I'm interpreting how it works right.

A. Passive: Having a hydros monitor temperature and not control anything, that is reasonable to me, but adds no additional level of control.
B. Fallback (not fault-tolerant): Having a hydros monitor temperature and act as a backup control, that to me is not fault-tolerant. The Hydros connects to the outlet via wifi. Your wifi goes down and that fallback is totally broken.
C. Active (very not fault-tolerant): Having a hydros monitor temperature and act as the primary control, with the heater's temp as a backup, that's absolute crazy-sauce. I've done this with a Reef-Pi + Kasa outlet, and real bad news happens when wifi blips.

Am I getting it correct that there's no Apex + EB8 equivalent, safety, setup for Hydros? The Hydros can only serves as a passive temperature monitor, not controller.
Click to expand...
For A, yes you can do that by having whatever outlet it's hooked onto as a constant "on" plug. That leaves all control to the Ranco/Helios/Inkbird to do the power cycles and wear out that circuit rather than the XP8 or Launch outlet (equivalent to EB8, but both have "brains" as backups unlike Apex, one unit in the collective dying doesn't knock out other units).
B: This isn't how it works, losing wifi like @dangalang said doesn't stop control, it just loses cloud access, but doesn't lose its programming/timing/control. This IS a problem with the Wifi power strip he mentioned as it will use its last known on or off setting and why we don't recommend those for anything critical.
C: I did this for about 2 years, but I found out from @derek_SR that he did have the relays in an outlet can wear out (as his did). I suppose you could rotate them to different plugs every year or so, but I'd rather put the burden onto the Ranco which has industrial strength relays that can switch for a decade plus. You can also daisy chain two heaters onto the Ranco so long as you don't exceed the amperage limit.

Ideal setup: Heater (internal thermostat set high e.g. ~81F to limit cycles on the bimetallic strip) plugged into --> Ranco/Aqua Logic controller set to 78F (will turn on at 77F and off at 79F) plugged into-->Hydros XP8/Launch outlet set to constant "ON" for backup/backup on/off control (you can manually kill the outlet if needed in the app if everything fails on which probably will never happen).

You still have the Hydros temp probe to tell you if something goes wrong with the Ranco too (what happened to @Alexander1312 's leaky probe).
 
richiev said:
I have apparently bought those glass Hitop ones twice based on my amazon history; I think from your recommendation. The titanium one is interesting, but it not saying how much it tries to hold the temp gives me pause (eg +- 1°F). What's your experience?
Click to expand...

I don't actually have a controller on the tank, not sure I'm even going to add one, so I don't really have a history of what the temp ranges are currently. But every time I look, tank has always been between 77-78 degrees.

I have usually used the Ranco thermostat, to control heat, but there is a relay in there so it can potentially wear out eventually. I'm actually thinking of switch to have Ranco just shut off the heater if it goes to 80F and use the heaters thermostat to control day-to-day since that is less expensive to replace. And in cases that there's an aquarium controller, I'll have that shutoff at 81 degrees.
 
dangalang said:
Hydros does not control the AC outlets via Wi-Fi if you use the Launch or XP8. It does if you use the Wi-Fi Power Strip, which is not recommended.
Click to expand...
Ah, wonderful, that's the key point I wasn't grok'ing. Can you clarify what the minimum number of components to do temp check + hardlined outlet control? I see the XP8 has a command bus, but don't see it has a sensor input. I assume you then need a basic hydros separate controller + XP8?
 
Darkxerox said:
For A, yes you can do that by having whatever outlet it's hooked onto as a constant "on" plug. That leaves all control to the Ranco/Helios/Inkbird to do the power cycles and wear out that circuit rather than the XP8 or Launch outlet (equivalent to EB8, but both have "brains" as backups unlike Apex, one unit in the collective dying doesn't knock out other units).
B: This isn't how it works, losing wifi like @dangalang said doesn't stop control, it just loses cloud access, but doesn't lose its programming/timing/control. This IS a problem with the Wifi power strip he mentioned as it will use its last known on or off setting and why we don't recommend those for anything critical.
C: I did this for about 2 years, but I found out from @derek_SR that he did have the relays in an outlet can wear out (as his did). I suppose you could rotate them to different plugs every year or so, but I'd rather put the burden onto the Ranco which has industrial strength relays that can switch for a decade plus. You can also daisy chain two heaters onto the Ranco so long as you don't exceed the amperage limit.

Ideal setup: Heater (internal thermostat set high e.g. ~81F to limit cycles on the bimetallic strip) plugged into --> Ranco/Aqua Logic controller set to 78F (will turn on at 77F and off at 79F) plugged into-->Hydros XP8/Launch outlet set to constant "ON" for backup/backup on/off control (you can manually kill the outlet if needed in the app if everything fails on which probably will never happen).

You still have the Hydros temp probe to tell you if something goes wrong with the Ranco too (what happened to @Alexander1312 's leaky probe).
Click to expand...
Aqualogic sells a Ranco set up that has 2 channels - if you want to run 2 heaters without needing to daisy chain, I think (or a heater + chiller).

I would also set it up so that the Ranco bears most of the relay burden, and the Hydros range is outside of that as the secondary failsafe. I have been using an XP8 now for 3 years and have 2 bad outlets (one stuck on, one stuck off). This is really the only issue I've had with Hydros hardware (other than my gripes with the Sole connectors - but that was a design choice).
 
richiev said:
Ah, wonderful, that's the key point I wasn't grok'ing. Can you clarify what the minimum number of components to do temp check + hardlined outlet control? I see the XP8 has a command bus, but don't see it has a sensor input. I assume you then need a basic hydros separate controller + XP8?
Click to expand...
Minium would probably be the Launch, which includes a temperature probe and has AC outlets integrated into the design. Second would probably be an XP8, a Control XS, and a temperature probe.
 
@derek_SR
Yes, the single stage is either heater or chiller
2 stage is heater and chiller
I run multiple heaters on a single controller in certain circumstances: like multiple rotifer culture buckets or hatchery tanks
 

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I think given the costs involved, I'm going to just throw more wattage onto my ranco and toss a backup heater into my display. $580 is too out of range, I was hoping there was a $300 version of the hydros setup.

I'll do 2 heaters on my ranco. My Jager in the main sump area because it's huge, and a titanium in the return section. Probe in the drain section.

Then I'll try and see if I can find a very black, innocuous one, I can hide at the rear of my tank. That'll be set lower then the others and shouldn't trigger usually.

Final backup is my Reefer ATO has a temp gauge, my reef pi has a temp gauge, and all these things are on wifi outlets :).

Anyone have experience with putting a heater in an overflow? It could throw off my probes, but it'd be the one that usually is off so hopefully wouldn't matter?

My premise being if my return died, having a heater in the overflow won't be as good as one in the display, but it'd be a heck of a lot better than only being in my sump.

Also wiring wise, my Ranco is 1-stage, but when I wired it I used a 3-outlet cord so I can easily run multiple heaters on it.

Thanks for all the input so far!
 
richiev said:
Sticking with the references to Hydros, I don't understand how people are using Hydros + heaters in a safe and controlled way if I'm interpreting how it works right.

A. Passive: Having a hydros monitor temperature and not control anything, that is reasonable to me, but adds no additional level of control.
B. Fallback (not fault-tolerant): Having a hydros monitor temperature and act as a backup control, that to me is not fault-tolerant. The Hydros connects to the outlet via wifi. Your wifi goes down and that fallback is totally broken.
C. Active (very not fault-tolerant): Having a hydros monitor temperature and act as the primary control, with the heater's temp as a backup, that's absolute crazy-sauce. I've done this with a Reef-Pi + Kasa outlet, and real bad news happens when wifi blips.

Am I getting it correct that there's no Apex + EB8 equivalent, safety, setup for Hydros? The Hydros can only serves as a passive temperature monitor, not controller.
Click to expand...
I have been doing C for 3+years now. I don’t understand the problem. When I lose WiFi, hydros continue to function . You only loses the ability upload new programming . Existing programming will continue to run.

I’m using XP8 . Maybe the WiFi strip has different behavior.
 
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