Hobby Costs; Can they be lower?

[Turkeysammich]

We should have a <$500 BAR tank challenge!

I’m in.

 

[Prestondeeply]

We should have a <$500 BAR tank challenge!

I'd be in on that if we can keep the tank size small-ish. I also wonder how many tanks we would have to buy to get a discount ;-) and if the goal was to be 'acro-stable' or 'LPS-stable'? I mean, a tank combo + heater + rock/sand + light + starter bio + CUC might already be tight at $500. Add in ATO? I'm certainly interested in the idea.

 

[Prestondeeply]

I'd be in on that if we can keep the tank size small-ish. I also wonder how many tanks we would have to buy to get a discount ;-) and if the goal was to be 'acro-stable' or 'LPS-stable'? I mean, a tank combo + heater + rock/sand + light + starter bio + CUC might already be tight at $500. Add in ATO? I'm certainly interested in the idea.

Wait, maybe I read that wrong. Did you mean:
o Given $500, can we build a stable reef system? We compete based on what it is growing each month and maybe how much time we spend maintaining?
o Pick a few LPS or a few SPS or a few fish and then see how cheaply can we build a stable reef ecosystem to house those specific animals (without undue risk to the animals)? Judged on growth and cost?

I'm still in either way....

 

[BAYMAC]

Remember a lot of stores have to abide by MAP so they can't mess with pricing on a lot of hardware/supplies.

The biggest concern I have for the hobby is that the same company buying up Ecotech/AI/Neptune (Aka Bertram capital). Much like you see with other industries with little competition, price increases will be unavoidable when one big company owns them all.

Old school reefers still have success with a modified Berlin method with just a few pieces of extra equipment. Take advantage of the club's DTBC and frag swaps to keep your coral costs down. Adopt fish and buy tank raised. Borrow club equipment where you can. Pay it forward for anything sitting in your garage like @Prestondeeply said research and buy the right thing first.

Look into solar if you can. The new tax credit is pretty nice!

Central Pet gobbled up far more companies then Bertram has, and they're still at it (65 companies thus far). They even combined some of those companies and killed some off all together.

MAP = minimum advertised price. They can sell it below, just not advertise.

MAP is super hard to enforce, I don't know any that actually do. You have to walk 50 states with various laws pertaining to it. Some consider it price fixing.

 

[rygh]

It’s the roof costs that are the deterrent for my case right now. Replacing the roof for solar, and then replacing it again in a few years to improve the upstairs is making the decision a bit more nuanced.

It is also very expensive to fix a leak.
A pigeon problem caused a leak. Had to get the solar company to remove the panels, then the roof company to fix the leak,
then the solar panel company to put the panels back up.
All those trips really added up.

 

[RandyC]

We should have a <$500 BAR tank challenge!

I’m out. Budget reefing requires DIY and manual activities. I’m lazy and I don’t like manual activities! I already have too many tanks! If someone wants my formula to run with, I’m happy to share my thoughts.

 

[Vincerama2]

On line stores / brick and mortar. IE:BRS, aquacave, LFS , etc. Will their prices come down ? Probably not ? Why ? Because if they sold it to you at 8 dollars last year and this year they raised it to 10. Why would they go back to 8 or less. Doesn’t make business sense. Plus everything is going up rent, man power, utilities, etc.

So, what to do ? I believe every person needs to do a power audit on their aquarium. Most people believe lights are the largest power draw. In reality, I believe that the pumps, heaters are the largest with lights coming in third. Last year I set up an off grid solar system to run my aquarium. Doing so I had to honestly do a detailed power audit of what each component was using. I can tell you that they use way more power than listed. Example an awesome skimmer. It’s sized for a 75 gallon. Pump said 18watts. I thought awesome. That little pump pulls 50 watts. Hummmmm. Crazy right.

so bottom line is….. think out of the box. Know what you’re plugging in and how much energy it really uses. Most of the time. We don’t really need all that additives , extra pump for this and that. and what not. We don’t even really need a sump if you want to get down and dirty.

I agree with the power audit, I started last year when my power/gas bill came to some really high numbers. I'm on TOU (time of use) billing since I have an electric car, so for me, 12AM-3PM is the cheapest power, followed by 9PM-12AM which quite a bit higher, then the highest tier is a jump after that too.

For PG&E EV-A rates;
12AM - 3PM = 24 cents per kWh
3PM - 4 PM & 9 PM - 12 AM = 44 cents
4 PM - 9PM = 55 cents

My LED lights have a white and a blue component. at 5AM, I turn both lights on, then at 3PM I shut the white bulbs off and the blues stay on until 8pm so I can see into the tank.
However, I might shift the light cycle to just 4AM to 4PM with both sets of lights on then so the corals can get 12 hours of light. ... but of course, I have an aquarium so I can look at it!

Some things you can't get away with not using light heaters, but you could also just run a skimmer during the cheap times, 12-3pm. I running a skimmer 24/7 will of course get more oxygen into the tank, but the return pump motion should do that too, as well as the powerheads.
Currently I'm running a sulfer denitrator and an algae scrubber.... but do they actually help or am I just wasting power?

I have a one of those kill-a-watt testers, Maybe it's time I used it.

Working from home and powering my computers with my electricity instead of the companies doesn't help either.

It's an expensive hobby. The upfront costs eventually get forgotten about. The maintenance (all the power, plus stuff like CA/Alk maintenance and food!) adds up on you. Though it's the power consumption that hurts most.

V

 

[Vincerama2]

Btw what the heck is SJ clean energy generation charge?

That's a good question, my bill always has a "Penninsula Clean Energy Generation Charge" that I apparently auto-matically opted in for, but it claims to be cheaper than PG&E generation.

 

[Arvin R]

We should have a <$500 BAR tank challenge!

I'm so in! But is this equipment costs only? Or $500 with livestock/coral? Anything over a 20gal and rock alone would run the bill too high imo unless you were to find a crazy value deal on the used market. Would there be a time period of how long you can take to get the setup bought and up and running? I could take months waiting for steals on the used market and get something pretty decent together.

Let's hash out the rules and I'm down to help facilitate and would love to participate in this.

Ideal have prep time, then I'd say let the tanks run for 1 year, monthly updates along with anything done for maintenance/purchases for the tank so we can also track cost to upkeep it through the year. A kw monitor would be cool but hard to implement. I do have one I haven't tried yet and maybe we could pass it around and each person uses it for 1 week and records the electricity usage?

 

[L/B Block]

I agree with the power audit, I started last year when my power/gas bill came to some really high numbers. I'm on TOU (time of use) billing since I have an electric car, so for me, 12AM-3PM is the cheapest power, followed by 9PM-12AM which quite a bit higher, then the highest tier is a jump after that too.

For PG&E EV-A rates;
12AM - 3PM = 24 cents per kWh
3PM - 4 PM & 9 PM - 12 AM = 44 cents
4 PM - 9PM = 55 cents

My LED lights have a white and a blue component. at 5AM, I turn both lights on, then at 3PM I shut the white bulbs off and the blues stay on until 8pm so I can see into the tank.
However, I might shift the light cycle to just 4AM to 4PM with both sets of lights on then so the corals can get 12 hours of light. ... but of course, I have an aquarium so I can look at it!

Some things you can't get away with not using light heaters, but you could also just run a skimmer during the cheap times, 12-3pm. I running a skimmer 24/7 will of course get more oxygen into the tank, but the return pump motion should do that too, as well as the powerheads.
Currently I'm running a sulfer denitrator and an algae scrubber.... but do they actually help or am I just wasting power?

I have a one of those kill-a-watt testers, Maybe it's time I used it.

Working from home and powering my computers with my electricity instead of the companies doesn't help either.

It's an expensive hobby. The upfront costs eventually get forgotten about. The maintenance (all the power, plus stuff like CA/Alk maintenance and food!) adds up on you. Though it's the power consumption that hurts most.

V

I wonder if the club could purchase one of those watt meters. Now I am curious.

The apex says that the usage is 1.3 KW over the month? For an average of 10.35 per month (based on .35) -granted this does not include the lights, or even things like the fmm that plugs into outlets or…

I don’t think it’s the fish tank though that truly zaps us on energy costs though with solar panels and a battery-it’s charging of the car and electric heat. It’s also a g-d send though to have that when the power does go out -only once -but the fish tank & fridge stayed on.

 

[Vincerama2]

I wonder if the club could purchase one of those watt meters. Now I am curious.

The apex says that the usage is 1.3 KW over the month? For an average of 10.35 per month (based on .35) -granted this does not include the lights, or even things like the fmm that plugs into outlets or…

I don’t think it’s the fish tank though that truly zaps us on energy costs though with solar panels and a battery-it’s charging of the car and electric heat. It’s also a g-d send though to have that when the power does go out -only once -but the fish tank & fridge stayed on.

Here's the one I have;

Kill A Watt Meter - Electricity Usage Monitor | P3

www.p3international.com

But there are different brands. They run $30-$50

 

[Sfork2]

Remember a lot of stores have to abide by MAP so they can't mess with pricing on a lot of hardware/supplies.

The biggest concern I have for the hobby is that the same company buying up Ecotech/AI/Neptune (Aka Bertram capital). Much like you see with other industries with little competition, price increases will be unavoidable when one big company owns them all.

Old school reefers still have success with a modified Berlin method with just a few pieces of extra equipment. Take advantage of the club's DTBC and frag swaps to keep your coral costs down. Adopt fish and buy tank raised. Borrow club equipment where you can. Pay it forward for anything sitting in your garage like @Prestondeeply said research and buy the right thing first.

Look into solar if you can. The new tax credit is pretty nice!

Speaking of solar. If you didn’t know if you are not in the process of installing or done by this April you probably won’t be grandfathered into the current net metering program. After putzing around with Tesla solar, We used kingdom solar and they did a great job very quickly and about 10k cheaper than any other quote (except Tesla).

I’m an electrician and probably could have done it myself but it’s not worth the liability when insurance won’t pay out for something because I DIY’d

 

[Arvin R]

Speaking of solar. If you didn’t know if you are not in the process of installing or done by this April you probably won’t be grandfathered into the current net metering program. After putzing around with Tesla solar, We used kingdom solar and they did a great job very quickly and about 10k cheaper than any other quote (except Tesla).

I’m an electrician and probably could have done it myself but it’s not worth the liability when insurance won’t pay out for something because I DIY’d

I thought any solar contract signed by April 1 is grandfathered in? Can you elaborate on this more?

 

[rygh]

...

I’m an electrician and probably could have done it myself but it’s not worth the liability when insurance won’t pay out for something because I DIY’d

Always check the small print in your insurance.
Some care about DIY, some do not.
For a while, regardless of DIY, State Farm would not pay if for any month in the year you sent more power than you received because you were a "business"

 

[L/B Block]

Here's the one I have;

Kill A Watt Meter - Electricity Usage Monitor | P3

www.p3international.com

But there are different brands. They run $30-$50

Thanks

 

[Coral2Coral]

Speaking of solar. If you didn’t know if you are not in the process of installing or done by this April you probably won’t be grandfathered into the current net metering program. After putzing around with Tesla solar, We used kingdom solar and they did a great job very quickly and about 10k cheaper than any other quote (except Tesla).

I’m an electrician and probably could have done it myself but it’s not worth the liability when insurance won’t pay out for something because I DIY’d

Thinking about getting solar, could somebody elaborate net metering program and differences after April? Thanks.

 

[Arvin R]

Thinking about getting solar, could somebody elaborate net metering program and differences after April? Thanks.

The basics of it is the old net metering gives you $0.30 per kW you produce and the new net metering (after April) only gives you $0.08 per kW you produce. (Got this info from an e-mail from a solar company).

 

[JVU]

Gist of net metering currently is that you pay the “net” of what you use, discounted directly for what you put back on the grid. In other words, you get credit for your excess energy at full retail rate. This may be fixed, or it may change throughout the day on time of use plans.

The new system will be that when you put electricity back on the grid, you get about 25% of the retail rate in credit, instead of the retail rate. This makes over-generation of electricity much less valuable to a consumer, and all properly sized systems routinely over-generate during peak sun times of the day. One likely outcome is that people will install smaller under-powered systems. The rule also incentivizes having local storage batteries, since you can store your excess electricity and use it later when the sun goes down to avoid paying retail rates later.

If you sign your solar install agreement before April 14, you can use the current system. After that you are subject to the new rule, thus will have higher PGE bills forever and take additional years to break even on the install costs.

 

[L/B Block]

Gist of net metering currently is that you pay the “net” of what you use, discounted directly for what you put back on the grid. In other words, you get credit for your excess energy at full retail rate. This may be fixed, or it may change throughout the day on time of use plans.

The new system will be that when you put electricity back on the grid, you get about 25% of the retail rate in credit, instead of the retail rate. This makes over-generation of electricity much less valuable to a consumer, and all properly sized systems routinely over-generate during peak sun times of the day. One likely outcome is that people will install smaller under-powered systems. The rule also incentivizes having local storage batteries, since you can store your excess electricity and use it later when the sun goes down to avoid paying retail rates later.

If you sign your solar install agreement before April 14, you can use the current system. After that you are subject to the new rule, thus will have higher PGE bills forever and take additional years to break even on the install costs.

Thanks for articulating the difference.

 

[Sfork2]

Yeah just wasn’t worth the headache. Maybe if my house was a single story I would have given it more consideration. But even paying someone else the break even is just under 4 years, not even accounting for the tax incentive

Some care about DIY, some do not.
For a while, regardless of DIY, State Farm would not pay if for any month in the year you sent more power than you received because you were a "business"