got ethical husbandry?

How often do you do water changes?

In my opinion, in theory, on paper, if you are adequately exporting nutrients, and adding in all the trace elements that the corals use up, there should be no reason to do water changes.

To me I would rather do water changes than deal with all the additives. In my tank I use water changes to siphon my sand. I don't really know any other way this job would get done than a water change. Additionally I see noticeable positive differences in my corals right after a water change (mostly PE). This could be because they have trace elements that they were lacking, or just fresh not stale water. It could also be they just like seeing my face for an hour while I do the water change (the most likely reason)

There are MANY different ways of doing things in this hobby, and things that work for one person don't work at all for another. That doesn't mean either of those people are wrong or doing it wrong, it's just different. If there is something that is working for you, and you are getting the results you're looking for, don't change it! If you aren't getting the results you're looking for, start to GRADUALLY change to another method, and give that a couple months to see results.
 
ofzakaria said:
But not for WWC and other coral farms out there..do not u think? At a discount maybe, but I know for a fact that margins on the salt are low..you would be suprised man.
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Not sure since I have never ordered corals online. For smaller farms yeah, but for bigger ones wouldn't be surprised if they do get some sort of manufactures discount especially considering how many times they have mentioned which salt they use, but honestly I don't know.

And yeah the profit margin on salt is fairly low, but there still is wiggle room when buying super mass quantities I suspect. I mean you got 20% off for a tiny bulk order.

Either way the profit margin on salt is small but I suspect the profit margin on some of their corals is through the roof. One designer acro frag and thats a few hundred gallons worth of water change right there :)
 
Regarding the BRS videos, I have been a big fan of their Investigates videos, because they were running real experiments and getting real data. One of the talking heads narrating, but with a real scientist type in the background designing and running the experiments. Sometimes the first/only time anyone looked at a topic scientifically, and often with surprising results. I appreciate their investment in this, and I support it with my business.

Their videos where they just say their opinion based on anecdotal experience of the BRS and sometimes WWC crews is ok, but still just anecdote. Their top 20 videos like the one cited are an example. I don’t think they really advance the hobby personally. They used to be a lot more humble before they got famous, now a lot of what they say has more of a "I’m famous, do what I do" vibe which I find off-putting and not helpful. I’ve seen lots of things they say that I don’t agree with, and several objective errors that they never correct even after pointed out- Better to be confident than correct if you want to be famous I guess.

Their worst videos by far are the newer conversational ones where they basically just say whatever pops into their head. If I watch those it’s generally sped up with generous skips.
 
JVU said:
Regarding the BRS videos, I have been a big fan of their Investigates videos, because they were running real experiments and getting real data. One of the talking heads narrating, but with a real scientist type in the background designing and running the experiments. Sometimes the first/only time anyone looked at a topic scientifically, and often with surprising results. I appreciate their investment in this, and I support it with my business.

Their videos where they just say their opinion based on anecdotal experience of the BRS and sometimes WWC crews is ok, but still just anecdote. Their top 20 videos like the one cited are an example. I don’t think they really advance the hobby personally. They used to be a lot more humble before they got famous, now a lot of what they say has more of a "I’m famous, do what I do" vibe which I find off-putting and not helpful. I’ve seen lots of things they say that I don’t agree with, and several objective errors that they never correct even after pointed out- Better to be confident than correct if you want to be famous I guess.

Their worst videos by far are the newer conversational ones where they basically just say whatever pops into their head. If I watch those it’s generally sped up with generous skips.
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I completely agree with u on that. I take BRS videos with HUGE grain of salt. More like bucket of salt.
The way I see it they are just a data point..that's all.
Many times they will have an enforcement hidden in their videos...
They also some times do not describe all the facts only to later(some times after years) they do a video and admit a laundry list of mistakes and things went wrong with a specific topic....
 
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Meshmez said:
Additionally I see noticeable positive differences in my corals right after a water change (mostly PE). This could be because they have trace elements that they were lacking, or just fresh not stale water. It could also be they just like seeing my face for an hour while I do the water change (the most likely reason)
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It’s most likely the detritus you’re kicking up into the water column during your water change that the coral sees as food that is causing the increased polyp extension.
 
I think this question is moot. There is no doubt that water changes are good (if done properly). We don’t do them because we’re lazy, because we physically cannot or because of cost.

It is also known that tanks can go for a long time without them. This may not be optimal, but is true.
 
JVU said:
Regarding the BRS videos, I have been a big fan of their Investigates videos, because they were running real experiments and getting real data. One of the talking heads narrating, but with a real scientist type in the background designing and running the experiments. Sometimes the first/only time anyone looked at a topic scientifically, and often with surprising results. I appreciate their investment in this, and I support it with my business.
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Agreed wholeheartedly. I've made a lot of parallels between reefkeeping and brewing beer (one of my primary hobbies in grad school that's fallen by the wayside since I don't have space). A lot of people give (well-meaning) advice that's based on anecdote. It's repeated enough until it becomes 'the way things are done'. Then someone performs controlled experiments, and it sometimes turns out even a fundamental aspect (e.g., secondary fermenting) is wrong, or has no effect. I love Brulosopher and his ex-BEER-iments for that reason, and glad to see BRS is in the same mold.

Props to them for that approach. It's how everyone learns. :)
 
svreef said:
We don’t do them because we’re lazy, because we physically cannot or because of cost.
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or because some feel they're wasteful.

Not denying they can be effective at what they do, but fundamentally what you're doing is you're throwing out water that still salty, still has calcium, alkalinity, trace elements etc, maybe in a bit lower amounts, and the big trade-off is you're removing some amount of waste product(s), but never all. Which ultimately is why there are 'other methods' a way to remove some of said waste products or put back small amounts of what was lost, e.g. calcium reactor/kalk/2 part, skimmers, algae turf scrubbers, refugium, etc.
 
This turned out to be a pretty good thread. People are laying it all out there.

We just discussed no water changes, let’s shift the discussion to auto water changes. I started an awc system when I first started my tank but felt like it was just wasting water. I think at the start, it probably was since there was little livestock but maybe it wouldn’t have been more beneficial if the system was a little more mature. It was 120 gallons and I was doing 1 gallon a day all at once at around 11:00 pm. Those who have done or are doing awc’s what volume and frequency do you do it?
 
Flagg37 said:
This turned out to be a pretty good thread. People are laying it all out there.

We just discussed no water changes, let’s shift the discussion to auto water changes. I started an awc system when I first started my tank but felt like it was just wasting water. I think at the start, it probably was since there was little livestock but maybe it wouldn’t have been more beneficial if the system was a little more mature. It was 120 gallons and I was doing 1 gallon a day all at once at around 11:00 pm. Those who have done or are doing awc’s what volume and frequency do you do it?
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I’m interested in AWC. Does anyone with multiple tanks run AWC, I would imagine you could do some cool things with multiple tanks and AWC. Like discard “dirty” water from a LPS or SPS tank into a softie tank that would probably appreciate the waste water.
My GHL gear finally came and I have two optical sensors so I can try AWC, but I need to figure out if I need the bigger doser for that.
 
max_nano said:
I’m interested in AWC. Does anyone with multiple tanks run AWC, I would imagine you could do some cool things with multiple tanks and AWC. Like discard “dirty” water from a LPS or SPS tank into a softie tank that would probably appreciate the waste water.
My GHL gear finally came and I have two optical sensors so I can try AWC, but I need to figure out if I need the bigger doser for that.
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You can use their maxi for AWC, or you can use something like Stenner. Depend on how accurate your want the pump to be, your selection might differ.
 
From those who have considered AWC, besides convenience and stability, are there any other benefits? Does anyone measure their saltwater at day 1, 3, 30 after mixing to make sure they are getting the same quality/parameters as when it was new?
 
Chromis said:
From those who have considered AWC, besides convenience and stability, are there any other benefits? Does anyone measure their saltwater at day 1, 3, 30 after mixing to make sure they are getting the same quality/parameters as when it was new?
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These may be of interest.
 
Chromis said:
From those who have considered AWC, besides convenience and stability, are there any other benefits? Does anyone measure their saltwater at day 1, 3, 30 after mixing to make sure they are getting the same quality/parameters as when it was new?
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I think convenience and stability are the biggest benefits. I don’t know that there’s anything more. For testing, other than salinity I never tested anything else. I just hated testing that much. It would have been interesting though if someone else did it for me. I’ll have to watch those BRS videos and see if they did.
 
I do roughly 30% every 2 - 3 weeks. Sometime I'll go a little longer. I would really like to set up an AWC system but there is no feasible way for me to get lines from my mixing station in the garage to the tank. I used to do the bucket method but that was a PITA. Ended up doing less water changes because of it. I bought a Python No Spill Clean and Fill and that made life a lot easier. I siphon to a drain outside of the garage and plug it into the pump on the fresh salt vat to fill.
 
Piper said:
I do roughly 30% every 2 - 3 weeks. Sometime I'll go a little longer. I would really like to set up an AWC system but there is no feasible way for me to get lines from my mixing station in the garage to the tank. I used to do the bucket method but that was a PITA. Ended up doing less water changes because of it. I bought a Python No Spill Clean and Fill and that made life a lot easier. I siphon to a drain outside of the garage and plug it into the pump on the fresh salt vat to fill.
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I also use the python (you can make one even cheaper on your own if you want) to drain and then attach to a pump to refill. I actually attached a pvc hose fitting to my sump to attach the python to for refilling. I need to add a bulkhead to mount it a little cleaner.
20200618_103457.jpg

Then I use one of these and an extension cord to turn the pump on and off while im at the tank.
 
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