Need Some Drain & Sump Wisdom
- Thread starter ReyDeFarts
- Start date
Thanks for the responses and help. I agree about the small drain with a valve will cause more restriction. I laughed at your response because of these two sentences! It's slowly getting there. We finally agreed on a spot where the tank is going!
Now to get it into the spot, redo some electrical to protect the outlet, level it out, fill it, and test out the drains.
After hearing to use the small drain as the primary, it definitely messed with my understanding of how they designed the tank. I'm still stuck on using the larger drain on the primary.
@Coral reefer I get what you're saying about not even using those drains and start from scratch with new overflow. Or get a different tank. We're doing this hobby on a strict budget to say the least. So we're trying to not go crazy with additional purchases. I have seen in other forums, some kickass setups with this tank, plumbed the way the way they intended it and sold to customers. That's why I keep going back to why not use the larger drain as the primary. Just trying to make this work with what I've got the best I can.
RandyC
Supporting Member
You can use the larger drain as the primary drain, but I would use it as a durso drain and not put a valve on it. Durso drains are hard if not impossible to silence though.
Thanks again for this Marcos. I forgot you posted it. I was curious last night about how to approach the setup for this. Definitely had it backwards in my head on how to use the chambers.
I think I will be adding some live rocks or media bags to the return area as was suggested. I'm not too sure about adding filter socks to this sump though. I'd rather have some sort of course sponge for mechanical filtration.
The past couple days I have been able to put in some time on the tank and prepped the area where it will go. What a mess!
Amazon did not come through with getting the 40mm x 1¼" adapter delivered though. So for now, the larger stock drain will have to do for testing.
Finally got it wet to test out the drains! The ½" is able to handle the full flow. So that's a big plus.
This appears to be the highest the sump will get. The middle baffles is what controls the level, correct? Is this enough sump volume for this tank?
In the return area, I used a Sicce Syncra Silent 3.0 to test it out. It was a bit too much flow than what the drain was providing. I tried it fully open and the minimum. I'll be ordering a new DC pump and installing a valve as well for further flow control on the return line.
So with all that said, I don't see why I would add any kind of valve to the small drain line if I were to use that as the primary since it cannot keep up with this pump. Now to wait for the adapter for the large drain so I can get that switched to 1¼" pipes.
I was able to test multiple positions of the return nozzle to let it back siphon and see how full the sump would fill. If the nozzle was pushed down too far, that would definitely become an issue. I think I'll be adding a y-fitting on the locline and reducing the length. Hopefully minimizing that hazard.
Any other considerations I should be thinking about?
MichaelB
Supporting Member
The Sump needs enough volume left open to ensure it doesn't overflow with a power outage. Easy to test unplug return pump when tank is full and note water level in sump once it stops draining . If it over flows to much water, if not you can use that to figure out max water you can add to 5he system. I keep 3 inches from top of my sump without power to return.
The level of sump after return pump is running again gives me the water mark of where to put the ato sensor at. Most likely you know this already, just mentioning it because I had to figure it out from flooding my stand a few times.
I did test that out a couple times tonight. It never came close to the top of the sump thankfully.
I will have to get that figured out after I get the new pump then. Thanks for the info. I'm just now learning about how to use a sump.
MichaelB
Supporting Member
You can increase the amount of water in sump if it's not close. I guess water level in sump may matter for skimmer as well.
Still learning them myself. Trying out filter socks this week. They clogged up on me so i swaped to the other pair. There are so many little things you learn from just doing it, that everyone doesn’t bother mentioning as it seems common knowledge to them. Watch a million videos get lots of advice and you will still have tons of on the job training lol.
Since i'm getting the larger tank I scraped my originally plan to make more rock structures to replace fake rocks in my 65gal. I finished the first one last week and today said screw it and tossed the other rocks I was gonna build the other structures into my sump today. Hopefully it will be well seeded for the next tank.
Can't wait to see your tank up and running. It's looking great so far.
Usually you want the sump water height high enough that you're not hearing a waterfall from the water going into the return, but low enough that water is pouring over the edge.
The reasons for having it pour over the edge are because that ensures your ATO is only refilling based on small water changes in the return section, and not the entire width of your sump.
For example, think how much water is in 1cm vertically of the entire sump, versus how much is in 1cm of the return area. You can do l*w*h math to know exactly how much, but it's a very big difference. That means if you lose a cup of water, your return section's level will lower a lot more than if your entire sump was filled and you took a cup out. That then means it's much more precise for an ATO to keep things consistent.
Other benefits include helping break micro-bubbles if you have a skimmer, another small bit of aeration, and a convenient, high flow, place to put bags of carbon and such.
The setup of the drains I won't get into again since I'm pretty sure that topic has been covered to death.
The reasons for having it pour over the edge are because that ensures your ATO is only refilling based on small water changes in the return section, and not the entire width of your sump.
For example, think how much water is in 1cm vertically of the entire sump, versus how much is in 1cm of the return area. You can do l*w*h math to know exactly how much, but it's a very big difference. That means if you lose a cup of water, your return section's level will lower a lot more than if your entire sump was filled and you took a cup out. That then means it's much more precise for an ATO to keep things consistent.
Other benefits include helping break micro-bubbles if you have a skimmer, another small bit of aeration, and a convenient, high flow, place to put bags of carbon and such.
The setup of the drains I won't get into again since I'm pretty sure that topic has been covered to death.
I appreciate it. This tank belongs to the wife. Lol. I'm looking forward to seeing her put together a scape with all those rocks we picked from you. After it's up and running, we'll get a proper journal put together.
Quick thanks to @Srt4eric for a great deal on a skimmer for this tank.
I had another sump sitting around that was going to be used for another build, but that may not happen any time soon. So I figured I'd pull it out and see if it would be a good option. It's a Trigger Systems Sapphire 26.
The drain is a 1" inlet. The nice thing is I have a gate valve I could use on it. So the plan is to get this plumbed up and test it out with the new pump.
I had another sump sitting around that was going to be used for another build, but that may not happen any time soon. So I figured I'd pull it out and see if it would be a good option. It's a Trigger Systems Sapphire 26.
The drain is a 1" inlet. The nice thing is I have a gate valve I could use on it. So the plan is to get this plumbed up and test it out with the new pump.
That's the same sump I have under my tank right now.
This is the way it proceeded with this setup.
@PjFish get your popcorn ready!
And for those with plumbing OCD... ahem @RandyC , please look away! LOL
I was getting some additional advice offline also from @Srt4eric about the plumbing. Adding the slightly larger sump, it made things a little more difficult. Mainly because of the drain inlet for the sump being a bit higher. There was little space after the metric x standard adapter which caused issues.
The adapter was lost in shipping and had to reorder. I should have not been hasty with the reorder. I didn't think through about which adapter to get. You can see here my hasty mistake of adding the 40mm x 1¼" adapter, 1¼ FPT x 1¼" Slip, and then a 1¼"x1" bushing. Added a few unnecessary inches to this. Eric told me I could have just got a 40mm x 1" elbow. DOH!
I know this may cause some head scratches for some (all) of you. But the tank has been running for the past few days without any issues. Definitely stoked about that! I tested the small drain several times to ensure it can handle the flow and it does.
I also upgraded the pump to a DC pump with controller and can further dial in the drain flow. I installed a ball valve on my return line for more control if needed. I hard plumbed it from the tank to a couple inches below the sump, where I used braided hose to the pump.
The slightly elevated pipe there was concerning. Albeit not ideal, it is working (for now). I am proceeding with cautious optimism. I utilized the existing durso plumbing for the large drain. So far it has been very quiet in the overflow box, as long as I have the height dialed in correctly as @derek_SR mentioned. I am still going to experiment with the small "emergency/trickle" drain to see if that can be utilized for a small trickle and help regulate the height of the water in the overflow. I am curious if drilling a small hole close to the top of the white pvc for a trickle could accomplish that?! Thoughts?
This has been the loudest part of this setup. The water crashing into the sock area and having it fall into the chamber below. Do I need to add more water to submerge more of the sock? My plan is to not use socks anyway. Instead coarse foam and floss (when needed for polishing or post WC).
The main reason for moving forward with this, is to utilize the tank as-is as much as possible with minimal expense and so that we can get it up and running as soon as possible too. Next step is to clean it out one more time, and then start adding some media to the sump and start cycling it! Thanks everyone for all your help, guidance, wisdom, and ideas. It did not fall on deaf ears.
I'm interested to hear your opinions on this. Lol
Kensington Reefer
Supporting Member
The portion you have circled
I would avoid any type of connection there the will in anyway reduce the diameter
I would find the “pool tubing” (maybe 1.5”) type stuff and put it OVER the grey pvc
Alway better to increase drain diameter than to reduce
Save that nice new union for something else
Always IMHO
I would avoid any type of connection there the will in anyway reduce the diameter
I would find the “pool tubing” (maybe 1.5”) type stuff and put it OVER the grey pvc
Alway better to increase drain diameter than to reduce
Save that nice new union for something else
Always IMHO
PjFish
Supporting Member
Wondering why you reduced 1 1/4 down to 1 inch If thats the way I read it? Spears gate valves are full port which have the same inner diameter as the connected pipes.. Other gate valves are standard port that have a reduction of one pipe size smaller inside the valve FYI so hope you used a full port gate valve
Looks like the drain pipe is definitely a few inches below water surface which is good but sounds like all the noise maybe coming from air bubbles that take a ride!! Since you basically made P-Trap like under sinks its trapping air as well so may get quieter when you ditch the P-Trap..Some people drill small holes every one inch down a ways on the main drain which also helps quite thing which has worked for me in the past but Beware!! this method adds more water to the sump if thats a concern …
Have you tried inserting an airline tube down your hole yet ?may have to go extra deep to relieve the trapped air to find that sweet spot!
How far above the water line is the emergency drain and how far below the edge of tank is it? Hard to see looks high
Thanks for the update looking good! Time for some extra butter now!!
Looks like the drain pipe is definitely a few inches below water surface which is good but sounds like all the noise maybe coming from air bubbles that take a ride!! Since you basically made P-Trap like under sinks its trapping air as well so may get quieter when you ditch the P-Trap..Some people drill small holes every one inch down a ways on the main drain which also helps quite thing which has worked for me in the past but Beware!! this method adds more water to the sump if thats a concern …
Have you tried inserting an airline tube down your hole yet ?may have to go extra deep to relieve the trapped air to find that sweet spot!
How far above the water line is the emergency drain and how far below the edge of tank is it? Hard to see looks high
Thanks for the update looking good! Time for some extra butter now!!
That is the metric to standard adapter. If I did use some type of tubing, I would still be reducing to 1" for the sump inlet.
The sump inlet is 1"
When I get the drain dialed in, I'm getting no air bubbles or gurgling which is great. I close the valve all the way and allow the pipe to fill, which removes the air. Then I slowly start opening it up until I get the right level.
I actually cut it down another 3/4" because it was indeed too high. I forgot to take that picture after I was done testing and drained it.
Wooo! Thanks!
Yeah, I tried the extra plate. It didn't really help at first. It did eventually quiet down a little. It seems like the distance from the where the water cascades into the sock and the level below is too low. That's what was making the most noise.
I played around with the water level with the adjustable baffle. Added a bunch more water and tried to figure out my max and min water level. The skimmer manufacturer recommends 6.5" water level. So I may leave the baffle at the lowest setting. We'll see how that ends up.
So after I marked off the sump with the max/min levels, I drained it (just tap water) and started filling it with some SW.
@a.little.hypertonic will be working on the rockscape design. I have no clue what she's going to do.
Went with Fiji Pink and a couple bags of Ocean Direct to help start the cycle. Ended up with a 1.5" sand bed. Plan is to add some mature media into the sump from another tank as well.
So after I marked off the sump with the max/min levels, I drained it (just tap water) and started filling it with some SW.
@a.little.hypertonic will be working on the rockscape design. I have no clue what she's going to do.
Went with Fiji Pink and a couple bags of Ocean Direct to help start the cycle. Ended up with a 1.5" sand bed. Plan is to add some mature media into the sump from another tank as well.
They sell plastic cups with holes in the bottom that you can drop right into the filter sock hole. Into which you can stuff your filter floss. Replace every week with a square that you have precut. That’s what I use and it takes 10 seconds to swap and toss the used.
