Edgar Sandoval
Supporting Member
Great news. I hate testing my water
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Neptune news from MACNA
- Thread starter Vhuang168
- Start date
sfsuphysics
Supporting Member
Had a big rant I decided to erase, but is there any feasible reason why this should only work with the newer Apex? I mean it's sending a signal to the controller telling it a value and seeing if there is any logic that tells it to do something.
roostertech
Guest
Reason: $$$$
This would the killer product that would make everyone upgrade to the new platform. That way they can charge it for a reasonable amount and still have credible financial story. Also with more people on newer platform, someday they can EOL the old one. As SW dev, doing backward compat is among my least fav thing.
kinetic
Supporting Member
Looks cool! Hopefully it's out by the time I (may) need to dose.
and @sfsuphysics, I agree with @roostertech, this is a great way to get people to update. Companies are always looking to increase the lifetime value of a customer, but at the same time there's a fine balance of keeping a company running and successful vs. doing the right thing.
and @sfsuphysics, I agree with @roostertech, this is a great way to get people to update. Companies are always looking to increase the lifetime value of a customer, but at the same time there's a fine balance of keeping a company running and successful vs. doing the right thing.
sfsuphysics
Supporting Member
Yeah figured it was a money issue, as I assume at it's core (not COR! 
) the internal hardware/programming is probably close enough to not be that much of a compatibility headache. Oh well, I'll just wait for brand B to come out with all those testing parameters in one package.
) the internal hardware/programming is probably close enough to not be that much of a compatibility headache. Oh well, I'll just wait for brand B to come out with all those testing parameters in one package.
roostertech
Guest
Yeah figured it was a money issue, as I assume at it's core (not COR!
Even if it is very very easy to do backward compat, its dev time + qa time + support time = spend more resource to get less $$
Dammit... now I'll need multiple 2016 Apex's as well. Ugh. Maybe by Q1 2079.....
sfsuphysics
Supporting Member
Unless of course the software is identical, in which case the argument that it takes any significant amount of dollars is a moot point since all that's happening is a particular voltage is sent back to the head unit, which has all the logic of what to do in it. But then again, it very well might be a completely different platform.Even if it is very very easy to do backward compat, its dev time + qa time + support time = spend more resource to get less $$
Still think the move to do the latest only might alienate existing customers.
Wlachnit
Past President
Yup...completely agree.Even if it is very very easy to do backward compat, its dev time + qa time + support time = spend more resource to get less $$
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THe flip side to the getting people to upgrade argument is that by not making in backward compatible they are severely limiting the market for their new product. I suspect that users of the 2016 version are a tiny fraction of APEX users considering how long older units stay in the hobby via sale and trade of used equipment. If we assume that only 10% of Apex users upgraded (and I have zero evidence that this is the case, but it seems 'fair') then by not making it backward compatible you limit the new product sales to a much smaller market.
That could be by design on multiple levels. I have learned by by my own in house reporting on metrics, that even after beta testing, a lot of other "bugs" can be found.
But also I have no clue what platforms the apex 2016 runs vs the old. If it really is that different then the price of development and maintaining it on different platforms may outweigh market share.
But I do think this a game changer and will start to get people to jump in from the sidelines or switch up to apex 2016. Not always intuitive but pretty awesome once you figure it out. With the dos to do auto water changes -kinda awesome.
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Flagg37
Guest
I think they've calculated this decision. I think you're right that the majority of the apex users do not have the 2016 but I also think the percentage of people who will want to use this product is equally as small. You and I discuss how this will change our reefing but I think we make up a small percentage of reefers. I think the vast majority of reefers never test for those three elements and simply perform their scheduled water changes. It's to be expected that some people will want this functionality and be upset that they have to upgrade and walk away from Neptune products all together. (I would gather that @sfsuphysics would be one of those if he had an apex). Then others that were likely already looking at switching over (like @Vhuang168) and this gives them the motivation to do so. There's even those not interested in the trident but are looking for used classic units that will be happy with people upgrading. There's a lot of assumptions one could make from this decision but I think it's been well thought out and is a good choice from a business standpoint.
By the time the Trident is widely available mid or late 2018, the 2016 Apex won't be the "new Apex" that only a minority of users have, it will be the Apex that perhaps most current users and all new users have. I don't see any problem with designing this cutting-edge, expensive, narrow-market optional add-on to work specifically with their more updated system. To me it seems fine, and I don't think it needs to be framed as a shady and Machiavellian business decision.
Technology hardware has a limited lifespan, the more advanced and the more rapidly advancing, the shorter the lifespan.
More importantly, no one on this forum actually knows the answer to whether or not there is some legitimate over-riding engineering/design reason why this will work with only the newer Apex. Neptune in the past has tried to make new hardware backwards-compatible and I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt that if it were straightforward to do that here, they would.
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Technology hardware has a limited lifespan, the more advanced and the more rapidly advancing, the shorter the lifespan.
More importantly, no one on this forum actually knows the answer to whether or not there is some legitimate over-riding engineering/design reason why this will work with only the newer Apex. Neptune in the past has tried to make new hardware backwards-compatible and I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt that if it were straightforward to do that here, they would.
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sfsuphysics
Supporting Member
Well if anything I've learned in this hobby is that you really should never get that "first to the market" type of new toy, because there will likely be bugs, possible upgrades, possibly better products from competitors, or whatever. I mean hell almost 5 years ago if you jumped all over the Radion bandwagon, you'd have seen a new version come out almost on a yearly basis and while I'm sure there is nothing wrong with them compared to the Gen4 Pro with TID,and everything else it might be a bit of a let down. And never EVER pre-order anything because the promises that their marketing told you would be in a product, very well might not be in said product.
xcaret
Guest
That's how I got a collection of iPhones; upgrade, upgrade, upgrade...
I didn't buy them, they are hand me downs from that one who has to have the newer better thing. Soon I'll have a 6+ courtesy of the 8 coming out.
When Apex came out I thought it was the controller to have since it allowed for a seeming unlimited expansion, the older AC had limits on what you could plug/controll
I still have a couple of AC Jr that ended not being used as the competitor's ReefKeeper2 I found to be easier to use and to this day I still have one.
Back then the full Apex came at about $500.00? Jeez, pretty steep (for me, back then and still is) I was eyeing into piggy bank some money and veer into the Vertex Cerebra since I was reading and comparing both units on ReefBuilders.
I think the upside of the new unit (2016) is that there will be a few Apex available on the BST forums with just enough toys attached for some of us to pull the trigger on a better controller, I could finally ditch the old timers.
I'm not a fan of a single controller to be in charge of a whole system, if the main unit for some reason fails then disaster is looking straight ahead.
I'm sure someone will come with a gadget to test for those three parameters and be more affordable to the not so deep pocketed hobbyists, take Hanna for example, although is the same company, they came with the line of Checkers, I was trying to sell my phosphate colorimeter?, the big blue unit. Those were a bit pricey and same company, Hanna, well, made me keep a piece of ancient reef related piece of testing equipment. I know the chekers are not "automated " but it is nice to be able to read a number, made life easier; I can imagine how sweet it'd be to just put test water in, press a button and magically numbers appear; no more little packets to open or lids to unscrew that is until replenishment is needed.
Vhuang168
Guest
I'll be tearing down my IM16 soon. (Been saying that for 6 months already, can't find anyone to pick up my purple LTA). When I do, I'll have a black label Apex classic available. It's the same as the white/orange label, they just updated the look going from black to orange/white.
For all the help you give and your generosity to our memebrs, I'll give you that system. It will come with at least 1 EB8
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xcaret
Guest
Thank you, I really appreciate it.
Flagg37
Guest
He's eluded to a build thread on the horizon (it's about time). This should go well with it.