got ethical husbandry?

Reminder to All: Acropora Eating Flatworms!

gaberosenfield said:
You certainly make the LFS not QTing issue sound hopeless aqua-nut! Maybe you're right. I guess it makes no difference either way, since it will always be necessary to do your own QT if you want to be sure not to introduce diseases and pests into your own aquarium...
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Sorry. I don't intend to make it that dire!

Diver's Den keeps their fish quite a while before shipping. It might even be some kind of QT. They recommend the end user do their own QT.

In the wild fish are exposed to all sorts of pathogens. IMO, because they are so healthy and uncrowded they can fight off most of what they are exposed to. Once they get into the supply pipeline to us they are stressed, underfed and crowded together. Not a good situation.

QT is not only useful for disease. It gives the animal time to recover from it's 'jet lag' of net, bag, ship, net, bag, ship and then dumped into our tanks with a bunch of bullies! (see 'Finding Nemo', the dentist's office! :) ) Even if you don't treat in QT, the fish has time to regain strength, gain weight and build up it's resistance. Have you ever seen tangs in the wild? They are phat! It's really rare to see one even chubby in a LFS.
 
aqua-nut said:
It's way too expensive for a store to do a proper QT. If it's not a proper QT it's not worth anything. I don't trust any store to do a proper QT. I'm not saying the LFSs are bad or evil, it's just not possible with the economics of the whole LFS system to do it right.
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LiveAquaria can do it. Every fish that comes into the Divers Den facility is quarantined, treated, and observed. (http://www.liveaquaria.com/general/general.cfm?general_pagesid=425). It might not be a bullet proof system, but it's certainly better than doing nothing. They dip, observe, and quarantine corals as well. (http://www.liveaquaria.com/general/general.cfm?general_pagesid=377). Frankly, from what I saw yesterday, LiveAquaria's prices are way cheaper too!
 
@sfsuphysics:
1) I don't think it is hypocritical at all. Do you think it is hypocritical to expect restaurants to hold and pass health/food safety inspections when you do not hold such inspections in your own personal kitchen? I think not. Because businesses like LFSs and restaurants are serving the general public, their failure to ensure a standard of health and safety affects many people without their knowledge. By contrast, one's personal failure to ensure the safety of their own tanks and kitchens affects only themselves (most of the time at least...).
2) I do have a personal QT and it seems like most people that have responded in this thread also have their own personal QT, so it is definitely not hypocritical for me to want the LFSs to QT.
 
sfsuphysics said:
IMO, if you as an end user do not go have a QT to treat things, then don't you think it's a bit hypocritical to be upset when a LFS doesn't either?
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Actually I don't. We want what we buy to be healthy. This industry is not regulated nearly as well as the ornamental plant industry. They can get 'red tagged' for having either diseased or weedy plants.

I just go with reality. It's a jungle out there and I'm gonna keep my machete well sharpened! :)
 
Bluprntguy said:
LiveAquaria can do it. Every fish that comes into the Divers Den facility is quarantined, treated, and observed. (http://www.liveaquaria.com/general/general.cfm?general_pagesid=425). It might not be a bullet proof system, but it's certainly better than doing nothing. They dip, observe, and quarantine corals as well. (http://www.liveaquaria.com/general/general.cfm?general_pagesid=377). Frankly, from what I saw yesterday, LiveAquaria's prices are way cheaper too!
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I've read many stories of getting sick fish from every online vendor. LA is probably the best but they don't guarantee disease free, they do replace if it dies (14 days?). On their front page is a link labeled 'Always Quarantine New Arrivals'.

I also think they have a volume advantage and they cut out the middle man. Both give them the $$ to do some QT. The LFSs are on a much tighter profit margin.

Hopefully they won't go downhill after the Petco buyout.

If you buy one fish they are lots more $$ because of shipping. I also like to see the fish first.

I'd also like to comment about your neighborhood description. Have you ever been to 'Ocean Aquarium' on Cedar in SF? Now that's a baaaad hood! Sometimes I feel like I need a bodyguard. :eek:
 
For many fish, they go out the door as fast as they come in from the wholesaler.
For those, it makes no business sense to QT. And in fact, it might not be better for the fish either.
Reducing time at the LFS means less stress, and less chance to get diseases.

For everything else, I would think it would make business sense to QT.
You have to hold on to your inventory. Do you want it to die?
Do you want one bad piece of inventory to destroy your other inventory? Diseases spread.
And for corals, it is even more so, since holding inventory makes them more valuable as they grow.
 
aqua-nut said:
I'd also like to comment about your neighborhood description. Have you ever been to 'Ocean Aquarium' on Cedar in SF? Now that's a baaaad hood! Sometimes I feel like I need a bodyguard. :eek:
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Why would you ever go to Ocean Aquarium? They only have freshwater fish! But, yeah, it's tendernob. You just have to approach from uphill.

aqua-nut said:
I've read many stories of getting sick fish from every online vendor. LA is probably the best but they don't guarantee disease free, they do replace if it dies (14 days?). On their front page is a link labeled 'Always Quarantine New Arrivals'.
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LiveAquaria will give you a refund if the fish is diseased or DOA. I've even heard of them refund shipping costs. They do have a 14 day live guarantee. I can't speak to other online vendors as I don't buy that many fish for my nano. I'm happy to pay a bit more for LA.

I'm a firm believer in quarantine and prophylactic treatments and wouldn't put anything in my tank that wasn't quarantined by me. That doesn't mean that I want my LFS store to mistreat everything before it makes it to me. I like buying healthy livestock, not livestock that has been knowingly exposed to diseases that could be prevented. I like buying healthy fish, not fish that the store is trying to get out the door before the ich spots start showing.
 
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Gabe
The difference is health inspections in restaurants are mandatory by local laws, where as quarantining of goods in a fish store are not. The reality is if it wasn't mandated by law, people might hope they keep good food practice, but they'd still go out to eat until news breaks that someone gets sick.

Also you have to realize you have a tank in order to keep animals alive for the long term, a LFS does not. They have tanks that hold stuff for the shortest time possible to sell to you as an end user.

While I think its perfectly fine that one hopes that a LFS will QT it's corals/fish, if you know they don't and you yourself don't take steps to make sure to prevent pests you're just as guilty as they are for not QTing.
 
Fair enough. I'd only add that many people who buy animals from an LFS are ignorant of the existence of pests and the need for QT, while no LFS is ignorant of these issues. So I don't think the blame is equally shared by end user and LFS. But for those of us who aren't ignorant of these problems, it definitely doesn't make sense not to protect our tanks! I hope this thread helps educate members of or community who don't use a QT.
 
Bluprntguy said:
Why would you ever go to Ocean Aquarium? They only have freshwater fish!
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Some of us also swim on the dark side! :p

BTW, if anyone is into FW, check out Ocean Aquarium. I know the name is all wrong, the store is a mess (big time!) and the neighborhood is a bit scary but they have GREAT fish! Justin, the owner, might quiz you about your setup and has been know to refuse to sell if he doesn't think you are worthy! Such a refreshing change from the usual "Sure that baby Oscar will be fine in your 10G tank" FS!
 
Comparing what Divers Den can do to what a LFS can do is so off base its not even worth mentioning honestely... but... Divers Den doesn't pay quite the same for a retail space. They are in Rhinelander, ever been there? Its waaaaay out in the middle of no where.

The reality is, and always will be, you the consumer should QT everything you get. Your failure ends with your own results, not anyone elses.

Justin is one of my favorite LFS owners, and his shop is awesome.
 
aqua-nut said:
Sorry. I don't intend to make it that dire!

Diver's Den keeps their fish quite a while before shipping. It might even be some kind of QT. They recommend the end user do their own QT.

In the wild fish are exposed to all sorts of pathogens. IMO, because they are so healthy and uncrowded they can fight off most of what they are exposed to. Once they get into the supply pipeline to us they are stressed, underfed and crowded together. Not a good situation.

QT is not only useful for disease. It gives the animal time to recover from it's 'jet lag' of net, bag, ship, net, bag, ship and then dumped into our tanks with a bunch of bullies! (see 'Finding Nemo', the dentist's office! :) ) Even if you don't treat in QT, the fish has time to regain strength, gain weight and build up it's resistance. Have you ever seen tangs in the wild? They are phat! It's really rare to see one even chubby in a LFS.
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They keep them for a month. Their parent company's 250m revenue sort of helps subsidize Divers Den. If Divers Den was on its own, it couldn't survive (again, economy of scale).
 
Sorry if im hijacking this tread, but I just wanted someone to help me identify these white things on my acro. Figured this thread might work best since its regarding AEFW.
These white things seems to be moving or something is attached to it and moving against the water currents, or the acro is losing tissue.
Just recently fed some Roti feast and this might have a hand in it?

The bottom part where its white has been there since day one so I dont think its a stn thats going on

There seems to be no bite marks nor do these "things" have some kind of pigmentation making them red or pink or however red bugs look

Thanks in advance!
 

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Yeah, so after reading this I am now planning a QT and will hit the search function for setup tips and dips. Question - do people have separate QTs for fish and corals?
 
I have only 1 permanent QT for both fish and corals. However, if I needed to treat any of the fish, I would set up a separate hospital tank because the treatments for most fish diseases are toxic to corals. People who prophylactically treat their fish using either hyposalinity or copper have a separate QTs.
 
Depends what you want to do with your fish, if you treat them, then you can't mix them up. You can either observe and see if anything bad happens then treat, or medicate the fish regardless of what you think. If anything a QT for a fish allows the fish to eat without being harassed and build up any strength that may have been lost due to shipping (if it's new) or being in a very crowded tank in a LFS.
 
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