Tank Parameters all over the place

[MichaelB]

It's down @derek_SR explained it to me. Lanthanum is better when slowly dispersed over multiple doses. Say you using 2 mil.

Better to do many small doses of it than all at once.

A doser ensures it's dosed precisely daily at x time and without fail. Your saying your numbers have slightly increased. Only trying to offer suggestions. Both Lanthanum and gfo work I seriously don't think anyone would argue that point.

By saying you have the tools meaning you already have what's needed to lower po4 in addtion to water changes.

I'm soley speaking about efficiency using one or both in the most efficient way.

I was dosing stuff in my tank for years by hand. Until I screwed around and hooked up a single head doser lmao I feel pretty silly in hindsight for not using them when I've had dosers just sitting in the garage.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/dosing-lanthanum-chloride-into-skimmer-tips.685598/

That's a article about it. Not specifically doser related but revelant to subject matter.

This article is however very relevant including some cautions.

https://www.bareefers.org/forum/threads/guide-lanthanum-chloride-dosing-for-phosphate-control.36708/


*Dosing pump allows you to get tbe lanthanum directly at the sweet spot in skimmer. Also what derek mentioned about diluting it makes it less risky.

I gave away all my extra dosers or I would definitely have gave you one if you don't already have one. One time I had 3/4 sitting around.


More than anything I'm basically speaking about using your tools efficiently. As I've stated several times. I think it would make a real difference in your situation. Your able to test things now so your no longer guessing. If used efficent and there is no effect than you can slightly increase the dose. Yet just getting more efficient with what your already doing maybe enough by itself to see the numbers actually start to trend downwards.

 

[MichaelB]

oh yeah..

I pick 3 of these randomly every day and mix them together:

• Mix of 1 frozen cube (brine or mysis shrimp)
• pinch of flakes
• pinch of TDO pellets
• pinch of dried worms
• pinch of dried mysis

above is soaked in Selcon or Vitachem (alternate day).. I feed them 1.5 times (alternating between 1 and 2 feedings per day) and 1 Nori sheet for the tangs every day

Maybe get a small measuring spoon or like a medicine cup. Not saying weigh things. But use a line with a sharpie so you feeding the roughly the same amount. Also best to feed same number of times a day. This is just so when your testing one day verse next day and see differences it's not because yesterday I feed slightly more food than I did today etc.

For.tdo pellets I use the cap on the tdo pouch to measure as example verse just pouring in to my hand.

Frozen I feed 1 cube split between 2 tanks. 1

1.cube frozen for fish in qt, one quarter size portion of krill for puffer. And 1 sheet of nori for fish in qt.

Mostly I feed frozen. If I do tdo it's a lazy day or I'm busy. I never feed flakes I had major Po4 issues using them in my smaller tanks in the beginning. I've also never tried freeze dried food or any type of auto feeder.

Not implying my way is correct and your wrong at all. It would be more helpful taking a few extra seconds to measure things.


your adding enhancements to food have a scop dropper or something just so what your doing is mostly the same ratios day to day.

If your testing what your feeding won't be a random variable.

 

[Alexander1312]

oh yeah..

I pick 3 of these randomly every day and mix them together:

• Mix of 1 frozen cube (brine or mysis shrimp)
• pinch of flakes
• pinch of TDO pellets
• pinch of dried worms
• pinch of dried mysis

above is soaked in Selcon or Vitachem (alternate day).. I feed them 1.5 times (alternating between 1 and 2 feedings per day) and 1 Nori sheet for the tangs every day

I doubt that this causes your massive phosphates. And since the sand is somewhat excluded too, it must be the rocks.

Your choice is to perfect your LC game or replace the rocks. Seems like an obvious choice but I would probably still go with the rocks, since who knows what else will come after you fix the phosphate issues.

 

[tribbitt]

I guess $5 a pound and 160 pounds… Still pretty crazy.

These things take time don’t give up so quick

Also mentioned this privately but wanted to share. Increasing light intensity, photoperiod, and tank temps do decrease nutrients. As does iron dosing. But these cause growth of algae, plus you need to keep an eye on your inhabitants to made sure everyone is still happy

 

[Alexander1312]

I guess $5 a pound and 160 pounds… Still pretty crazy.

These things take time don’t give up so quick

Also mentioned this privately but wanted to share. Increasing light intensity, photoperiod, and tank temps do decrease nutrients. As does iron dosing. But these cause growth of algae, plus you need to keep an eye on your inhabitants to made sure everyone is still happy

Increasing light and adding iron at these phosphate levels will make algae growth explode. In a 200g tank, this is recipe for even more issues than there are currently in my opinion.

 

[tribbitt]

Increasing light and adding iron at these phosphate levels will make algae growth explode. In a 200g tank, this is recipe for even more issues than there are currently in my opinion.

Maybe do everything at once here… I agree too may things toward algae growth. But wanted to mention in the post as a possible way. I talked with Sameer in dm about this

He has a lot of tangs, so slightly turning up one of these dials like slightly increase par or photoperiod could increase algae growth still within the amount his tangs can consume

 

[L/B Block]

Ok I can’t recall the size of the tank -either 200 or 287?

But this website can help -
larryl.emailplus.org.user.fm/fish/dosing-instructions-phosphate-removers.html


So for arguments sake you have a 200 gal tank and you want to bring down po4 from 1.8 to .5 as a first stage of undiluted lanth-
Per website using tropic Marin elim-np -you need 98 ml. Then divide that by 10 to slowly bring po4 -it comes out to 9.8 ml a day -so the current 2 isn’t going to make much of a dent..

Maintenance mode would probably be closer to 3ish ml a day.

2nd stage would be diluted..

I just took two dosing heads offline so I have a Red Sea doser you can borrow for a bit -
Or an apex dos if you have/can get an Apex brain. Up in Oakland. There may be others by you with a spare doser if you put on the forum as a loaner.

LC can be great -but can cause issues if not properly used..first time per ICP tests it had jumped to 11 ppm. It caused no visible issues with animals but it can also stick to pumps so I stopped it.

2nd time around -per ICP test -lanth is currently 0. Difference is that I am feeding it through lid 2nd time.

But at that amount per day 9.8) -a doser would help break up the amount into prob 10-18 doses a day depending on certain factors..

If you do go the doser route with 2 heads -then alternative js carbon dosing (like 30-40% of max dose) which will bring down nitrates as well. PO4 will stall -but then kick in LC -but you may need a much lower dose of lanth -

For example I use 1 ml of TM’s bacto balance, and then currently 10 ml of 50:1 diluted lanthanum.,

 

[Alexander1312]

Ok I can’t recall the size of the tank -either 200 or 287?

But this website can help -
larryl.emailplus.org.user.fm/fish/dosing-instructions-phosphate-removers.html


So for arguments sake you have a 200 gal tank and you want to bring down po4 from 1.8 to .5 as a first stage of undiluted lanth-
Per website using tropic Marin elim-np -you need 98 ml. Then divide that by 10 to slowly bring po4 -it comes out to 9.8 ml a day -so the current 2 isn’t going to make much of a dent..

Maintenance mode would probably be closer to 3ish ml a day.

2nd stage would be diluted..

I just took two dosing heads offline so I have a Red Sea doser you can borrow for a bit -
Or an apex dos if you have/can get an Apex brain. Up in Oakland. There may be others by you with a spare doser if you put on the forum as a loaner.

LC can be great -but can cause issues if not properly used..first time per ICP tests it had jumped to 11 ppm. It caused no visible issues with animals but it can also stick to pumps so I stopped it.

2nd time around -per ICP test -lanth is currently 0. Difference is that I am feeding it through lid 2nd time.

But at that amount per day 9.8) -a doser would help break up the amount into prob 10-18 doses a day depending on certain factors..

If you do go the doser route with 2 heads -then alternative js carbon dosing (like 30-40% of max dose) which will bring down nitrates as well. PO4 will stall -but then kick in LC -but you may need a much lower dose of lanth -

For example I use 1 ml of TM’s bacto balance, and then currently 10 ml of 50:1 diluted lanthanum.,

FYI - Elimi NP is not their lanthanum chloride product, it's name is Elimi Phos Rapid. Elimi NP is for carbon dosing only.

Also, bacto balance is meant to dose to maintain nutrient levels. I am unclear why you would dose this in combination with LC?

 

[H2OPlayar]

What is all this freaking out over phosphate? It is not bad to be high and the numbers I am seeing are very reasonable. Thumb through my old journal from when I was in the bay and you will see some real phosphate, and a beautiful tank.

Don't change rocks over phosphate. That is silly, put your effort towards your long terms success. Dry rocks all leech loads of phosphate because the live stuff that is dead now needs to break down. I have had success with both LaCl and GFO, and I always dose vodka but for other reasons. I don't even think you need to go that slow on phosphate frankly, but slow is always safer. People often forget that removing a bunch of phosphate usually is accompanied by an alkalinity drop too, so check both as you move them.

I used to run a GFO reactor and swap that every two months. Now I dose LaCl into my skimmer throughout the day in small doses and that is way easier.

Michael's 168 build

Finally the top-down shot. :p More pictures can be seen on the previous page (#9).

www.bareefers.org

Michael's 168 build

Neither would break or leak if made properly and supported with a good stand. I am leaning towards a custom crystal dynamics tank like the last one I have. The euro brace and reinforced seams have held up really well. Oops I meant which is *less* likely to break/leak, if you are looking for...

www.bareefers.org

 

[L/B Block]

FYI - Elimi NP is not their lanthanum chloride product, it's name is Elimi Phos Rapid. Elimi NP is for carbon dosing only.

Also, bacto balance is meant to dose to maintain nutrient levels. I am unclear why you would dose this in combination with LC?

Thank you for the correction on the product names @Alexander1312. I use Bacto over the other only because it is less aggressive in stripping nitrates. When I started I only had 17 ppm NO3 and even with Bacto it had reduced substantially and then with LC it had actually really dropped to 1 before I had to intercede. But with all the carbon dosing products I find that PO4 generally stalls and then you need something else anyway to bring down PO4. By doing a combo I really use less of both as I find that with heavy carbon dosing (>50%) has its own set of issues in respects to suppressing calcification in SPS corals.

@spuri87 -I meant to add that higher PO4 can be ok to @H2OPlayar 's point and that many softies/torches/hammers/mushrooms actually don't care about elevated PO4 and nitrates and can thrive it in it. Just most SPS/acros do but not all. They can get used to it but if you drop in a sps from a system with relatively much lower nutrient system-may be in for a shock. I also concur not to replace any of the rocks unless you replace everything with dead rock and that is expensive, time consuming, and my understanding is that it's even more problematic according to some on the forum in terms of algae control and getting coral established.

So if other coral are happy in the tank maybe you just do a "softie" tank for the time being. My concern from my previous post is that with that amount of undiluted LC can be problematic for both livestock and pumps if it is not being exported properly. I like carbon dosing and a bit can help with the nitrates but care is needed as it can also introduce its own set of issues.

Another point I meant to add is that the TDO pellets are PO4 bombs! I use it in a pellet mix but only accounts for 20%. One thing to consider is to simply mix all the pellets into a cheap eheim auto feeder for the time being and you can actually program them (no web interface) to dispense the same overall food but in smaller amount of food over the day so that more food is eaten. Also bigger pellets release less fines ("dust") so less PO4. It's amazing how fast food can shift nutrient levels by either a "little" more or a swap of something else.

 

[Alexander1312]

For the record, what I think is ‘silly’ is to recommend keeping phosphate that high, very ‘silly’. Folks might have SPS growth, but then they grow them to be VERY brittle, which you will realize when you get frags from them at e.g., frag swaps, etc., and they break just by your tang looking at them. Advocating for excessive nutrients is a lazyman’s position. I have no problem if someone’s running their tank that high, but advocating for this to be a good practice is head-scratching - same as the choice of words FWIW.

 

[Turkeysammich]

What is all this freaking out over phosphate? It is not bad to be high and the numbers I am seeing are very reasonable. Thumb through my old journal from when I was in the bay and you will see some real phosphate, and a beautiful tank.

Don't change rocks over phosphate. That is silly, put your effort towards your long terms success. Dry rocks all leech loads of phosphate because the live stuff that is dead now needs to break down. I have had success with both LaCl and GFO, and I always dose vodka but for other reasons. I don't even think you need to go that slow on phosphate frankly, but slow is always safer. People often forget that removing a bunch of phosphate usually is accompanied by an alkalinity drop too, so check both as you move them.

I used to run a GFO reactor and swap that every two months. Now I dose LaCl into my skimmer throughout the day in small doses and that is way easier.


View attachment 78778View attachment 78779View attachment 78777

Michael's 168 build

Finally the top-down shot. :p More pictures can be seen on the previous page (#9).

www.bareefers.org

Michael's 168 build

Neither would break or leak if made properly and supported with a good stand. I am leaning towards a custom crystal dynamics tank like the last one I have. The euro brace and reinforced seams have held up really well. Oops I meant which is *less* likely to break/leak, if you are looking for...

www.bareefers.org

I haven’t jumped into this thread in a while. I said it a few pages ago and I’ll say it again. Michael @H2OPlayar is 1000% correct. Basically let the aquarium do its thing. You’re gonna throw thousands of dollars at it for the same results in the end. Slow and steady.

 

[spuri87]

Thanks everyone.. I really appreciate the wisdom thrown at me in this thread! it's clear that there are more than 1 ways to bell the cat, but that's why this forum exists, people share what has worked for them over multiple years and newbies like me can then decide what fits their situation best and design a custom solution for themselves (which includes what Will said, to wait it out).

I looked at your tank @H2OPlayar looks fantastic, even with high nutrients.. I would personally love to have a reef like that.. But changing rocks doesnt seem to be as uncommon as I thought it was and I am glad it was brought up as an option.. another member did +1 to the same idea and had success after changing their rocks, and they also have a fantastic tank!

But this website can help -
larryl.emailplus.org.user.fm/fish/dosing-instructions-phosphate-removers.html

Love it, thanks.. Yeah I am purposefully doing half the dose, as I am wary of using LaCl (for obvious reasons).. But to your point, 2ml will probably just help with maintaining the levels, not reduce them from 1.85 to 0.5 for instance.. I plan to increase dosage slowly (2ml * 2 times a day starting today), and maybe add a doser to automatically do it a bit later as Michael suggested.

I just took two dosing heads offline so I have a Red Sea doser you can borrow for a bit -

I will talk to you closer to the swap.. thanks for the offer!

LC can be great -but can cause issues if not properly used..first time per ICP tests it had jumped to 11 ppm. It caused no visible issues with animals but it can also stick to pumps so I stopped it.

how did you bring it down from 11ppm to 0 in between the 2 ICP tests?

I used to run a GFO reactor and swap that every two months. Now I dose LaCl into my skimmer throughout the day in small doses and that is way easier.

do you dose it manually in the skimmer or using a dosing pump? can you share what LcCl do you use and in what quantity and is it to maintain PO4 at a certain level or reducing them.. also, are you diluting in RODI water or just dosing directly?

Michael @H2OPlayar is 1000% correct. Basically let the aquarium do its thing.

hmm, I read it a little differently though.. I read that he had success even with high numbers, but he did dose LC and GFO and in fact recommending that it's ok to dose a little more than what I am doing right now.. but if you are pointing towards not changing the rocks, yes 100% agree.. as I said before, although good to have option in the back pocket to be used as the last resort, but I dont want to spend more money on the rocks just yet

For me thus far, I feel my custom solution for my tank is natural (20-25% weekly water changes) + controlled chemicals (LC + Carbon dosing)

 

[Turkeysammich]

Micheal is way ahead of you. As the age of rocks. Thius the additives. Grow your bio, Grow coralline algae. Then softies , LPS, easy sps. Finally harder sps. In that order. Correcting things in the early stages of the game doesnt do much except empty your pockets. It’s a process. You gotta let the process do its thing.
We all end up at the same place eventually. Just depends on what route we take to get there. I’m not saying anyone is wrong. I’m just telling you what’s happening in your aquarium. Maturity takes about a year to a year and the half with dead rock.

 

[L/B Block]

For the record, what I think is ‘silly’ is to recommend keeping phosphate that high, very ‘silly’. Folks might have SPS growth, but then they grow them to be VERY brittle, which you will realize when you get frags from them at e.g., frag swaps, etc., and they break just by your tang looking at them. Advocating for excessive nutrients is a lazyman’s position. I have no problem if someone’s running their tank that high, but advocating for this to be a good practice is head-scratching - same as the choice of words FWIW.

What I am advocating for is understanding what the goal is- if it is keeping SPS -then I do not espouse keeping nutrients high. On the other hand-euphillia and other softies don't care about high nutrients but do care about stability. I think it the lazyman's position is to not bother to understand the needs of your tank. GFO, LC, and the like have their own issues and even though my last ICP test registered 0 I still wonder the impact on the larger environment in my reef tank. All of this management can cost substantial amounts in dollars such as dosers even if the LC and carbon dosing solutions are relatively cheap. I think unless someone is meticulous about the approach -that is consistent in dosing times/amounts as well as keeping food the same in terms of amounts/timing -the process can cause more instability which is worse than high nutrients that are stable.

 

[Alexander1312]

What I am advocating for is understanding what the goal is- if it is keeping SPS -then I do not espouse keeping nutrients high. On the other hand-euphillia and other softies don't care about high nutrients but do care about stability. I think it the lazyman's position is to not bother to understand the needs of your tank. GFO, LC, and the like have their own issues and even though my last ICP test registered 0 I still wonder the impact on the larger environment in my reef tank. All of this management can cost substantial amounts in dollars such as dosers even if the LC and carbon dosing solutions are relatively cheap. I think unless someone is meticulous about the approach -that is consistent in dosing times/amounts as well as keeping food the same in terms of amounts/timing -the process can cause more instability which is worse than high nutrients that are stable.

I was not referring to you @L/B Block, but points taken.

 

[spuri87]

Micheal is way ahead of you. As the age of rocks. Thius the additives.

honestly, nobody knows the age of rocks in my tank (except my LFS).. they came from LFS who may have had them in their tanks for decades lol.. and hence all the nutrients problems within 6 months of having the tank lmao

but I got your point.. not going SPS route anytime soon! just dont want to be at a point of no return in case I want to do that later, if that makes sense

 

[H2OPlayar]

do you dose it manually in the skimmer or using a dosing pump? can you share what LcCl do you use and in what quantity and is it to maintain PO4 at a certain level or reducing them.. also, are you diluting in RODI water or just dosing directly?


hmm, I read it a little differently though.. I read that he had success even with high numbers, but he did dose LC and GFO and in fact recommending that it's ok to dose a little more than what I am doing right now.. but if you are pointing towards not changing the rocks, yes 100% agree.. as I said before, although good to have option in the back pocket to be used as the last resort, but I dont want to spend more money on the rocks just yet

I have a Red Sea dosing pump that breaks my daily dose into a number of little doses throughout the day. I run the dosing line from a glass bottle into my skimmer neck running through a hole in the skimmer lid to keep it in place. The glass bottle is full of Phosban-L which I dilute down with rodi slightly more than the instructions. I don't really care what my dilution rate is because I adjust how many mL I dose per day to match my phosphate creation rate. So when I have time, I check it weekly and adjust 10mL daily up or down. I am currently running 6 mL/day to bring it back up. I also feed heavy, like really heavy.

What I am saying is phosphate can be anywhere from .05-3ppm and it is likely not the driving success or failure factor in the tank. If I had a magic knob to manage my phosphate where I want it (which I do with my dosing pump), I would keep it around .2-.3ppm. My point is I don't care if it gets to 1ppm because I can take it out later and it will be fine. Also, when it got that high in my tank, I was commuting and not managing my tank.

 

[L/B Block]

@spuri87 - between 1st and 2nd LC usage -after it registered 11 I stopped cold for a few months. Then when I started the 2nd time -I had threaded through lid unlike first time where I had a tee at the venturi. In theory this should have worked but I think some was being blown through the effluent. Also I dose a lot less now.

Also I may not be at swap. See what happens closer to event.

 

[Coral reefer]

Yes both new

hmm.. I have only been adding 125g each of Carbon 0.8 rox and Rowaphos in bags, changing about once every 30-45 days before I started using LC.. Now I am adding LC 2ml per day for about a week.. nothing else


Can you help me understand how manual dosing wont be as efficient as using a dosing pump? I understand why Rowaphos works better in a reactor, since all of tank water goes through it, but I always thought dosing pumps were basically an automated way of adding something to the tank.. For something like LC, where I just need to dose 'x' ml 'y' times a day, it should ideally be the same manually or automatically.. I feel I do need to see things working manually before I turn automation on.. Plenty of folks suggested not to dose things un-necessarily and with hand, I understand what I am doing a little better (speaking as of today) than how a dosing pump would dose things in the tank.

Dilute and add small amounts regularly with a dosing pump. Trust me