TM All-For-Reef
- Thread starter JVU
- Start date
I never claimed to be sane
But yeah I’m still considering various options, and the point of this thread for me was to learn from other people’s experiences with All-For-Reef, which I think is cool chemistry-wise and potentially revolutionary now that the price has dropped dramatically to be one of the less expensive but still complete solutions. So while other options may wind up being what I do, including boring options, I’m wanting to learn more about A4R here.
So cost isn’t the main thing for me, but it is a thing. My Triton Core7 consumption has been creeping up on me and when I do the math I’m currently spending about $6.60/day on it. I estimated the cost of using AFR instead at almost exactly half, $3.30/day when taking into account the alkalinity concentration of the respective solutions. The fact that it is half is just coincidence. For AFR, 1 ml increases 1 liter by 6.0 dKH, Triton is 9.75 dKH for component 3a+3b.
Looking at the cost comparison video from BRS and the 2-part BRS hybrid Balling method with TM trace elements mentioned above, my estimate is that that hybrid method will be only about 20% less than the AFR powder, so about $2.64/day, and would include 4 dosing heads and 7 things to mix, vs the 1 dosing head for AFR and one solution to mix.
Looking at the cost comparison video from BRS and the 2-part BRS hybrid Balling method with TM trace elements mentioned above, my estimate is that that hybrid method will be only about 20% less than the AFR powder, so about $2.64/day, and would include 4 dosing heads and 7 things to mix, vs the 1 dosing head for AFR and one solution to mix.
Well I'll be able to keep you posted. Started dosing AFR today; won't be able to correlate it with automated alk monitoring until later this week, though, since I need to order a new electrode.I never claimed to be sane
But yeah I’m still considering various options, and the point of this thread for me was to learn from other people’s experiences with All-For-Reef, which I think is cool chemistry-wise and potentially revolutionary now that the price has dropped dramatically to be one of the less expensive but still complete solutions. So while other options may wind up being what I do, including boring options, I’m wanting to learn more about A4R here.
Anyone have any updates?
I reached out to TM USA. Their support is really great by the way. They answered a bunch of my questions. Among them, they told me that the time to metabolize is very hard to predict, and that while the 2-6 hours cited is possible, they expect the metabolism to continue over a day or so. Once it reaches a steady state it’s good and stable since you are adding and consuming consistently, but during ramp up/down of dosing you have to test frequently and wait at least a day to see.
I reached out to TM USA. Their support is really great by the way. They answered a bunch of my questions. Among them, they told me that the time to metabolize is very hard to predict, and that while the 2-6 hours cited is possible, they expect the metabolism to continue over a day or so. Once it reaches a steady state it’s good and stable since you are adding and consuming consistently, but during ramp up/down of dosing you have to test frequently and wait at least a day to see.
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musclebenz
Supporting Member
I be curious to find out the results too. I was thinking of switching to AFR
I used the premixed liquid for a month, then transitioned to the powder.
So far I'm loving it. Anecdotally, I think my tank's happier with it, I like that I don't have to dose multiple solutions, and the cost is reasonable (dosing 54 mL/day on my current system, 70g of water total, which means it's costing me about 37 cents a day).
My KH director probe should get here today, so I'll be able to track alkalinity better, but checking alkalinity every day at ~3 PM with a hanna checker has indicated it stayed rock solid at ~8.4 dKH.
Wanted to give an unhappy update and cautionary tale:
So I attempted the conversion over to All-For-Reef from Triton Core7. I gathered a lot of info from various sources, including Tropic Marin.
I followed the recommended slow ramp-up of AFR, dosing 5 ml AFR per 100 L per day to start with, then increasing that by 2.5 ml AFR per 100 L each week until reaching the needs to the tank. During this time I was decreasing the Core7 dosing to keep the Alk/Ca/Mg stable, with 8/day testing on my Trident, and spot checks with Salifert Alkalinity test once a day or so (which I find more reliable than the Trident).
The first couple weeks went fine. A few days into the second increase in dose (10 ml per 100 L total) I had an SPS colony (Miyagi tort) RTN after I took it out of the tank, had it in tank water with heater for a few hours to clean the area where it was, then put back in the tank. I‘ve done this before fine. I was upset but basically at that point blamed myself, as it completely died over 2 days. Then while it was RTN’ing I noticed a tiny patch of necrosis on a huge Red Planet colony I have, which overnight spread considerably and over the course of a couple days almost completely died. About 1.5 foot diameter colony . During this it also started spreading to small portions of multiple other SPS colonies (none of which significantly died off luckily). It also started to affect some LPS, and I lost a couple heads of my huge hammer coral. Everything else looked pissed off but didn’t die.
During the RTN’ing I was madly trying to keep up with siphoning off dead flesh, keep parameters as stable as I could, aggressive skimming, new carbon in the reactor, 15% water changes every day. I stopped dosing the AFR on the first day that it was clear that the RTN wasn’t just the one colony but was spreading. I didn’t notice upfront, but looking back the pH started decreasing just before I had increased the dose to the 10 ml per 100 L and got significantly worse after the increase. Presumably other things I’m not measuring, like O2, were also getting really out of whack. My guess is that the formate in the AFR that acts as a carbon source for bacteria was driving an invisible bacterial bloom and either directly or more likely indirectly driving the RTN.
Within about 5 days of stopping the AFR dosing (and all the other stuff I was doing) the RTN stopped. I now have a 5 gallon bucket more than half full with coral skeletons. Luckily none of my higher-end corals were affected. Very stressful time for me though.
My take on this is that you should not try to switch a large high-consumption tank over to AFR. Even going slow and following guidelines is dangerous. Starting a new tank with AFR should be fine, lots of people have had success with it. Also, switching a young tank or one with low consumption is probably fine if you go slow.
So I attempted the conversion over to All-For-Reef from Triton Core7. I gathered a lot of info from various sources, including Tropic Marin.
I followed the recommended slow ramp-up of AFR, dosing 5 ml AFR per 100 L per day to start with, then increasing that by 2.5 ml AFR per 100 L each week until reaching the needs to the tank. During this time I was decreasing the Core7 dosing to keep the Alk/Ca/Mg stable, with 8/day testing on my Trident, and spot checks with Salifert Alkalinity test once a day or so (which I find more reliable than the Trident).
The first couple weeks went fine. A few days into the second increase in dose (10 ml per 100 L total) I had an SPS colony (Miyagi tort) RTN after I took it out of the tank, had it in tank water with heater for a few hours to clean the area where it was, then put back in the tank. I‘ve done this before fine. I was upset but basically at that point blamed myself, as it completely died over 2 days. Then while it was RTN’ing I noticed a tiny patch of necrosis on a huge Red Planet colony I have, which overnight spread considerably and over the course of a couple days almost completely died. About 1.5 foot diameter colony
. During this it also started spreading to small portions of multiple other SPS colonies (none of which significantly died off luckily). It also started to affect some LPS, and I lost a couple heads of my huge hammer coral. Everything else looked pissed off but didn’t die.During the RTN’ing I was madly trying to keep up with siphoning off dead flesh, keep parameters as stable as I could, aggressive skimming, new carbon in the reactor, 15% water changes every day. I stopped dosing the AFR on the first day that it was clear that the RTN wasn’t just the one colony but was spreading. I didn’t notice upfront, but looking back the pH started decreasing just before I had increased the dose to the 10 ml per 100 L and got significantly worse after the increase. Presumably other things I’m not measuring, like O2, were also getting really out of whack. My guess is that the formate in the AFR that acts as a carbon source for bacteria was driving an invisible bacterial bloom and either directly or more likely indirectly driving the RTN.
Within about 5 days of stopping the AFR dosing (and all the other stuff I was doing) the RTN stopped. I now have a 5 gallon bucket more than half full with coral skeletons. Luckily none of my higher-end corals were affected. Very stressful time for me though.
My take on this is that you should not try to switch a large high-consumption tank over to AFR. Even going slow and following guidelines is dangerous. Starting a new tank with AFR should be fine, lots of people have had success with it. Also, switching a young tank or one with low consumption is probably fine if you go slow.
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Coral reefer
Past President
Thanks for sharing. Is tough to detail the losses sometimes.Wanted to give an unhappy update and cautionary tale:
So I attempted the conversion over to All-For-Reef from Triton Core7. I gather a lot of info from various sources, including Tropic Marin.
I followed the recommended slow ramp-up of AFR, dosing 5 ml AFR per 100 L per day to start with, then increasing that by 2.5 ml AFR per 100 L each week until reaching the needs to the tank. During this time I was decreasing the Core7 dosing to keep the Alk/Ca/Mg stable, with 8/day testing on my Trident, and spot checks with Salifert Alkalinity test once a day or so (which I find more reliable than the Trident).
The first couple weeks went fine. A few days into the second increase in dose (10 ml per 100 L total) I had an SPS colony (Miyagi tort) RTN after I took it out of the tank, had it in tank water with heater for a few hours to clean the area where it was, then put back in the tank. I‘ve done this before fine. I was upset but basically at that point blamed myself, as it completely died over 2 days. Then while it was RTN’ing I noticed a tiny patch of necrosis on a huge Red Planet colony I have, which overnight spread considerably and over the course of a couple days almost completely died. About 1.5 foot diameter colony
During the RTN’ing I was madly trying to keep up with siphoning off dead flesh, keep parameters as stable as I could, aggressive skimming, new carbon in the reactor, 15% water changes every day. I stopped dosing the AFR on the first day that it was clear that the RTN wasn’t just the one colony but was spreading. I didn’t notice upfront, but looking back the pH started decreasing just before I had increased the dose to the 10 ml per 100 L and got significantly worse after the increase. Presumably other things I’m not measuring, like O2, were also getting really out of whack. My guess is that the formate in the AFR that acts as a carbon source for bacteria was driving an invisible bacterial bloom and either directly or more likely indirectly driving the RTN.
Within about 5 days of stopping the AFR dosing (and all the other stuff I was doing) the RTN stopped. I now have a 5 gallon bucket more than half full with coral skeletons. Luckily none of my higher-end corals were affected. Very stressful time for me though.
My take on this is that you should not try to switch a large high-consumption tank over to AFR. Even going slow and following guidelines is dangerous. Starting a new tank with AFR should be fine, lots of people have had success with it. Also, switching a young tank or one with low consumption is probably fine if you go slow.
sfsuphysics
Supporting Member
I feel for you John, I'm not that far removed from when something similar (for different reasons) happened to me.
That's really rough and I'm sorry to hear that, John.
Just as a reference point - what would you define as 'high-consumption' for the purposes of dosing AFR?
Just as a reference point - what would you define as 'high-consumption' for the purposes of dosing AFR?
I don’t really know what a cutoff should be, but I was using over 300 ml/day of the alkalinity portions of Core7 in my 200g system, which is supposedly more concentrated than B-Ionic, BRS 2-part, and RHF’s DIY recipe. I don’t have that problem anymore.
Another thing that should have been a tip-off to me but I didn’t notice at the time was that my Core7 comsumption was decreasing faster than expected as I was dosing AFR. I took that to mean that the AFR was doing a great job as the formate was metabolized to carbonate but in retrospect it probably meant my corals were getting progressively stressed and decreasing their uptake of calcium carbonate.